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Transcript of 'Hot Seat' interview with Geoff Hill and Basildon Peta
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
July 17, 2007

http://swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat120707.htm

On the programme 'Hot Seat' journalist Violet Gonda talks with foreign correspondents Geoff Hill and Basildon Peta about the thousands of Zimbabweans who nightly cross into South Africa .

Violet Gonda: It's reported that thousands of Zimbabweans are crossing the border every night as a result of the price cut crisis that began three weeks ago. Journalists Basildon Peta and Geoff Hill who travelled to Bietbridge border post this past week are guests on the programme 'Hot Seat' today. Now, most of the major supermarkets in Zimbabwe are empty, causing serious food shortages.

But, while long queues of people searching for food and fuel have re-surfaced, others prefer to cross the crocodile infested Limpopo River in search of food and hope. Now Geoff, let me start with you, the situation has been described as a 'human tsunami'. Can you first of all tell us or describe to us to what extent, you know, to describe the situation in Beitbridge?

Geoff Hill: Violet, that term 'human tsunami' was given to me by a Home Affairs officer on the border, not at Bietbridge but some way down, actually at one of towns on the way to Bietbridge who's dealing with that area, and that's where it came from, the phrase . I used that in a newspaper, and it describes the situation. It is wave upon wave of people who are coming across. And, whereas before, and for your listeners who are familiar with the geography of Southern Africa; as most of them are; whereas before, most people used to cross at the bottle neck of Beitbridge; legally or illegally; maybe going a few kilometres up or down from the bridge, maybe at most a kilometre up or down from the bridge to come across, they are now going 10, 20, 30 maybe 40 kilometres either side of the bridge and further to evade South African patrols, to evade robbers who are waiting to prey on them, and they are crossing. So, people are coming over on a very wide band across the river and it's impossible to calculate numbers. But it is, in the way that Home Affairs Officer said, it is a tsunami, it is a large number of people moving in a giant wave across the river. I don't know if that was Basildon 's impression when he was there as well.

Violet: I'll come to Basildon just now but I understand that only last week, one refugee told you that the movement at night was like the sound of cattle moving through the grass. Can you tell us more about that?

Geoff Hill: Sure, this was, the person, and I did name him, this is a man called John Gumede with his sister-in-law, Khayisa I think was her name, and they were from Bulawayo , and moving through the night across a farm. They had walked all the way from Louis Trichardto avoid, which is about 110 kmsor so from the border, to avoid government patrols because if you come onto the tar road you very often get picked up by the patrols. And John said that it was, there was no moon that night; this was just last week, early last week; and moving down through one of the farms, he could hear people. Initially he thought it was cattle moving and then he realised it was other people moving through the bush on either side of him. He didn't see them, it was just him in his small party and his sister-in-law, but he said it sounded like cattle moving through the grass; very quiet but very steady moving forward. The sound of human movement in the silence of the night. There's one farmer I spoke to further down the river, he's got a game farm. He estimates that between 80 and 100 people are crossing his property, just one property, every night.

Violet: And in terms of the rest of the area, how many people are moving every night?

Geoff Hill: Violet, we've no idea, we've no idea. We're talking about it's in the dark, it's in the bush, a limited number have been picked up by Home Affairs. And, unless Basildon has had better luck than I've had, I know I tried, I know Peter Fabricius tried, Andy Meldrum tried. Home Affairs are refusing to come up with any kind of number other than to say 'it's business as normal'. Well, it's not just business as usual or business as normal. There has been a huge serge in numbers but nobody's willing to put a figure to it.

Violet: We'll come to that issue later on but Basildon , in the past, many of the people who fled the country were political refugees. Is what you saw at Bietbridge this week any different from what has been happening over the last few years? I mean, has there been a marked jump in recent weeks?

Basildon Peta : Well, as Geoff said, I was at the border and I got the sense that there is, indeed, a huge influx of Zimbabweans into South Africa . My work was mainly concentrated on interviews with farmers living along the border line, the perimeter fence dividing South Africa and Zimbabwe; the game farmers; who say they have had to bear the greatest brunt of this influx because the people crossing into Musina have to pass through this and they resort to stealing, robbing to try and get money whilst in South Africa and to proceed to Johannesburg or wherever they are going. One farmer said his pumps, rather, the pipes, delivering water to all the water holes in his game farm, had been cut off by people who needed water to drink and to bath as they cross into South Africa . And, as I was interviewing one farmer vast, vast metres of his fence were being cut off and he later phoned me to say, after the interview, to say that 'look this is what happened when we were talking'. I did try to ask figures, numbers, but it's very difficult. The farmers I spoke to estimated that between 3 000 and 4 000 are jumping the border on a daily basis, every night.

Violet: You know still on the issue of the security and integrity of the border post, I understand that local South African gangs are actually using some Zimbabweans to do the robbery. Are residents in the Musina area in danger because of this?

Basildon Peta: Well, you see, Musina is a very problematic area now in terms of crime. Everyone is complaining about crime. We know crime is a problem in South Africa but the concentration of crime in Musina, a very small town on a border area, is unacceptable. The allegation is, yes, there are some Zimbabweans involved and who are used as fronts by the South African criminal gangs, to rob people, kidnap and whatever they get they come to surrender to these South African crime lords. I was unable to verify, to focus on crime, how it is happening as a story, as an angle per se. But, I think it is quite obvious that the crime around this town involves both the Zimbabweans and the South Africans. There was a farmer, or some farmers, who suggested that ex-military, the deserting soldiers from Zimbabwe are also involved. I was unable to independently verify that but if you look at the weapons that they use it all suggests that there is some kind of expertise in the criminal activities around Musina.

Violet: Geoff what can you say about this? You've explained to us about the humanitarian crisis at the border there, and now I understand there's this crime crisis. What have you heard? What impact is this crisis having in the area?

Geoff Hill: Well, what Basildon was saying I would agree with this very much. We went at the border together; we were a few days apart; and then after that I went further down as far as Toyandu, down to regional centres like Iyani. There is barely a town; I don't think there's a town in the region that is not feeling some impact from this flow. Very remote little hamlets that are feeling the impact of Zimbabweans coming through. There's a combination; there is petty crime, there is theft of food, the odd theft of cell phones, theft of bicycles; small petty crime that is taking place from people who arrive on this side of the border literally without a cent in South African money and a little bit of useless Zimbabwean money, who are coming in and who are stealing in order to get the bus fare or whatever they need to get on to Johannesburg.

And then, there are cells of organised crime, as Basildon was saying, and the impression that I got; and it's very easy to blame South Africans and to find a cop out for Zimbabweans; and I don't want to do that, but it does seem that it's been organised in a way in which advantage is being taken by South African criminal gangs to use Zimbabweans for major theft, for car theft, for theft of pumps and theft of farm equipment. We're talking about tens of thousands of rands worth. Handing those goods over, the Zimbabweans then go back across the border or continue on to Johannesburg . Whatever the case, the South Africans involved are able to set up perfect alibis at the time that the crime took place because they didn't actually finger and lift the property. They received the property, they sold it, they passed on money immediately before they sold it; immediate cash payment to the Zimbabweans, but the police were unable to touch them. Now, this is a bit of conjecture and extension on my part, this is the nub, the feed of what I'm being told. I have no hard and fast facts, but petty crime and big scale crime have both increased. Not just at Bietbridge, not just at Musina, not just at Louis Trichardt , but right across the whole band of the Northern Limpopo province; as far as Toyandu, as far as Mafeking, as far as Giyani and almost to the Kruger Park. So, it's a major problem.

Violet: And, as we heard that some of the farmers estimated that at least 3 000 people are fleeing Zimbabwe every day. Now that's a lot of people but it seems the South African government is ignoring this. Why is the government quiet about this crisis?

Basildon Peta: If I might just intervene there, sorry Geoff . . .

Geoff Hill: Well Violet ifyou can find the answer to that Basildon and I will write the story and jointly win the Pulitzer Prize! So you go and find the answer because in the years we've been here, we haven't been able to!

Violet: And Basildon ?

Basildon Peta: I just wanted to bring to your attention the fact that a Parliamentary Committee, a South African Parliamentary Committee headed by Maggie Sochku (sp), who is an ANC MP and head of this committee; I think it's called a Cluster Committee on Peace and Stability, visited the border while I was there. I have since spoken to Sochku whom made it very, very clear that the influx is a major problem. Her interpretation is very different from what the South African government has been saying, or the spin that they have been putting out. You cannot romanticise this problem; it's a major problem according to Sochku. She said as many as 5000 illegal immigrants are being arrested every week, that's maybe at the rate of 1000 a day, and, she made the point that these are the only ones we are able to catch; we don't know how many more we are not able to catch; there could be twice or thrice than those who are caught.

So, I think to me it was very significant that you have an ANC parliamentarian coming out and declaring how problematic this whole issue has become. Well, what she said might not obviously cover the sentiments of the South African government, but, because she's a ruling party MP, I think that in itself is significant. As to why they don't want to acknowledge it publicly, well, I think your guess is as good as mine. You know, the moment they start acknowledging that there is this huge problem, then, the next question is, what are you doing about it, because you have the most leverage to rein in this Robert Mugabe fellow. And I don't think the South Africans want to be faced with that question so they would rather underplay the influx, as they have been doing. They say they haven't' seen or experienced any major influx but the reality on the ground when you go there to speak to people is totally different.

Violet: Still on that issue Basildon , you know has South Africa got the capacity to deal with this ever increasing flood of refugees crossing the Limpopo ?

Basildon Peta: But what capacity do they need to deal with it?

Violet: What can they do?

Basildon Peta: Well, the best they can do is to ensure they use their leverage to resolve the crisis in Zimbabwe and stop the influx. I don't think these people who are coming, who are jumping the border, are doing sobecause they like it. Look, there are enormous risks involved. Go to the border there. There are these organised crime gangs that Geoff was talking about that purport to courier people across the border or to facilitate access. Once they take a group of would-be border jumpers and lead them along the so called ways that will result in entry into South Africa , they rob these people, they rape women, and they murder people. It's bad. I don't think the Zimbabweans love taking this risk. If their country was in order, very few people would border jump. So, if the South Africans can help resolve the situation at home, use their enormous leverage - you and I know very well that there is no other person in this world other than Mbeki who can call Mugabe to order now as I speak to you, not any day longer.

Violet: And Geoff not only South Africa , but not even a word from regional leaders. You know Mugabe doesn't even bother to pitch up for the talks and yet Mbeki and the SADC leaders have not said anything about that. When is SADC going to turn around and say enough is enough?

Geoff Hill: Well this, Violet, is not a uniquely African problem. If you look in South East Asia , at Burma , you get the Indian High Commissioner, or a Thai Minister or a Malaysian Senator on their own, and they will tell you what a disaster Burma is. You get South American; Central American leaders on their own; they will tell you how they wish Fidel Castro would hurry up and die. But the Organisation of American States; with the exception of the United States ; will not issue a statement. The South East Asian countries will not publicly condemn Burma . It seems to be this 'we all stand together'.

But, going back to what Basildon was saying about people coming across, I would agree with him entirely. People are not coming here from Zimbabwe because they hate Zimbabwe ; they don't love their country; we don't see people from Namibia or Botswana pouring into this country. We don't see the same level of Mozambicans; there are some; but we don't see the same level of Mozambicans coming across, or Swazi's for that matter, or people from Lesotho . Why is it only Zimbabwe ? It's clearly obviously because something is rotten in the state of Mugabe land. South Africa has had this issue before and that was during the civil war in Mozambique between Renamo and Frelimo there were almost 2million Mozambican refugees who came into what was Gazankulu, around Gi yani just across from Kruger National Park .

It was an enormous problem to set up camps and to look after them, and, they went back at the end of the war. We haven't reached that stage with Zimbabwe because there are so many Zimbabweans living in this country. With three million Zimbabweans here, it means that every family has a sekuru or a maiguru or a mukwasha or a brother or sister or someone who is here. So, when people cross, they don't sit around waiting for a UN refugee camp, they go to their relative in Bloemfontein or Nelspruit or Fofuder Pretoria or wherever their relatives are. What's happening though, of course, the figures that we've been talking about, it's easy to say 3000 or 4000 a night, but do the maths. That's a 100 000 people a month, that's 1.2 million people a year. That is at the current rate, and there's every indication that with the problems in Zim that this is going to escalate. That in a month or two we could be seeing 10/15 000 people a night. You've got to . . .

Violet: That's exactly what I wanted to ask Geoff on the issue of the figures, that a couple of years ago it was estimated that there were at least 3 million Zimbabweans living in South Africa, and you've just said that also. You've just confirmed that. Now, at least half a million people are in the UK and many more are scattered in other countries. If 2 000 people are leaving Zimbabwe every day, and if at least 3000 people are dying every week; you know from HIV/AIDS related illnesses; is it really known how many people are left in the country?

Geoff Hill: It's not but there was a UN official who said to me a couple of years ago when I was writing my first book and I thought this was a very important observation, that emigration is a worse problem than HIV, and, I said 'how can you say that?'. And she said 'well HIV takes every one equally, it takes the poor, it takes the rich, it takes the educated and it takes the un-educated. Emigration generally takes those who believe they can make it on the other side, and, those are usually the people with their O' Levels, with their A' Levels, with their skills'. That emigration takes the cream of your population and it's a far more severe drain on the economy. So yes, you know in 'What Happens After Mugabe,' you and I have discussed this before and I've talked about - how are you going to re-build Zimbabwe with your brains and your skills outside the country. But, that's another issue. It is, however, getting worse and worse, to the point where, in a year or two if there hasn't been change, there aren't going to be any skills left in Zimbabwe .

Violet: Do you agree Basildon , because these are business people, these are educated families that have now been forced to leave the country and have been made refugees in countries like South Africa ?

Basildon Peta: I do agree with all that Geoff has just said. Just to correct you though, you said 'a couple of years back it was said there are 3 million Zimbabweans in South Africa '. It was said a few weeks ago, I think about two weeks ago by the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs here, the South African Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Aziz Pahad. He said the government estimates that at least 3 million Zimbabweans are living in South Africa illegally. Let me tell you something. When I go to Rosebank, Sandton, to a restaurant or to a shop and I want to buy anything, in most cases these days I don't even attempt Zulu, I don't even attempt to speak in Xhosa; I speak in Shona. And, it is heart rending to encounter all these Zimbabweans; educated professionals who are doing these menial jobs. You have teachers who are waiters in restaurants; you've got nurses who are doing all kinds of funny, funny little jobs out of desperation. In Hillbrow I can tell you, I totally speak in Shona, whoever I meet and whenever I want to ask for directions anywhere, I speak in Shona. I think the figure of 3 million itself is an understatement. There is a farmer I spoke to while in Musina who said if his own counting records are correct, we could have as many as 8 million Zimbabweans in South Africa . Well, that might be a bit high, but I would imagine he's not far off. So the question comes how many Zimbabweans are left, or how many people are left in Zimbabwe .

Violet: Mmm, out of a population of 12 million?

Basildon Peta: out of the population, the figure they use these days is about 12 million people. I think if there is to be a proper census; it could be less than that. The point that concerns me is it is not about the numbers who are left in Zimbabwe , it's about the number of educated professionals that are left in Zimbabwe in view of the massive brain drain, I fear that there will be no credible educated professionals who can drive the economy left in Zimbabwe . Moreso if Robert Mugabe rigs next year's election again and clings to power which he is likely to do. That will only cause a massive brain drain and whoever will be left there will be people; who I must say with due respect; won't add value to the economy.

Violet: And you know, I also wanted to ask Basildon , that how is it people are prepared to cross the croc infested Limpopo River rather than to stay at home

Basildon Peta: But, with due respect to you, Violet, how can you stay at home where I'm told an average professional is earning a few million in terms of Zimbabwean dollars which cannot buy you anything. Surely, I think the obvious thing for any person to do right now in Zimbabwe is to ask themselves how they can better themselves. And, there are no prospects; there are no prospects whatsoever for anyone in Zimbabwe , apart from these Mugabe cronies who are milking the country dry. The natural instinct is to cross the border. You stay at home, as you suggest, Violet, what's next? What are you going to do? Businesses are closing and unemployment is 80%, inflation 5000%, there is just no prospect for any recovery whatsoever so long as this old man remains in power. So I am actually surprised by the few professionals I know who are still in Zimbabwe because they can get better opportunities elsewhere, particularly those in sectors like engineering. You know, South Africa here has a serious skills shortage and if you come here and you are in IT or you are in engineering civil or - you can get a job easily. South Africa has actually reserved a quota for those skilled professionals. I am actually surprised that there are still a few that remain in the Zimbabwe because there is no hope, nothing left for them.

Geoff Hill: Can I come in here Violet because I want to follow something that Basildon was saying and I don't want to give listeners the wrong impression from what I have said. You know, one thinks of this migration. This is not like the Irish going to America , this is not like Poles coming to the UK , and this is not a euphoric migration of going to find a new life. And so, when I go to a restaurant, like Basildon says, and you say to the waiter or waitress; 'where are you from?' and they say 'I'm from Zimbabwe' and I immediately revert into Shona and I say 'unobva kupi kumusha?' and they say 'ndinobva kwaMutare', 'Mutare papi?' and they say 'ah ndinobva kuNyanga' and you start chatting to them and the pain in the person's face to have found somebody that speaks their own language. And, the conversation immediately goes, not to politics, but to home and do you have news from home, and this is where I'm from and my mother's still there or my cousin's from there. These are people who have come trying to selfishly find a new life. These are people that who are here and they are living with an emotional pain of what is going on. They are people living in emotional misery. They are earning good money here but they are in pain over what is happening in their homeland. I think it's important for people outside the Zim Diaspora to understand it's not a euphoric migration. It's a forced migration and the people who are part of it are doing it under sufferance and when they are here they are living in the pain of what's happening in their homeland. They are not happy about it and I think that it's very important to note that people are not just coming here just because they are selfishly trying to earn better money the other side of the river.

Violet: Mmm Hmm, I understand what you are saying and we see it here also in the UK that, you know, many Zimbabweans spent most of their time at work trying to earn a living so that they can send money back home. That's the other question that I wanted to ask that it's estimated that exiles have sent to Zimbabwe billions of dollars. If it wasn't for that, would it be game over in Zimbabwe for Robert Mugabe?

Basildon Peta: Well, my position is that you see the situation under this man, this evil man, if you may allow me to say, cannot continue as it is. I think Zimbabweans are better off finding a quick fix solution that can bring this regime down and then maybe start afresh because the structural damage that Mugabe is inflicting on the economy slowly but surely, is going to be very difficult to reverse. If something were to happen and the bastard is out of power today, that would be the better option. Unfortunately that will not happen soon as long as the exile community is oiling the economy. I'm sure, in fact, you said it yourself, I don't think there is any other serious source of foreign currency into the country other than the remittances from the exiles and I don't have figures, I don't have estimates, but, when Gideon Gono was doing his rounds, you know what he was saying? He was saying if each and every ex Zimbabwean working abroad can remit 100 US dollars the country can earn 1.2 billion dollars.

I can't remember whether he said it's on a monthly basis or a yearly basis, but whatever it is, that money is enough to let the regime oil its patronage system. If it was money re-invested into the country for the betterment of the people, for importing fuel and electricity, the better. But monies going in there and people still suffer enormously; 20 hour electricity cuts and all those problems. So, if I had my way, I would encourage Zimbabweans in the Diaspora to find some way of looking after their relatives at home, either sending groceries or some other items, without necessarily sending cash that will end up benefiting an illegitimate regime. Sorry, I am expressing this as a personal view and not as journalist.

Violet: No, it's OK, because I wanted to, just before I go to Geoff, Basildon I wanted to also find out from you, you mention that maybe a quick fix solution is needed in Zimbabwe . What can you prescribe briefly?

Basildon Peta : Well, anything that can be done to bring this regime down I would support. It's difficult to say this or that, but my position is to say anything, anything that can be done. If South Africa can use it's enormous leverage to reign in this regime, the better. I am even; and this is a personal view, perspective; I even think it's better for the world to impose comprehensive sanctions against Mugabe's regime, not the tinkering they have been doing with the travel sanctions.

Violet: What sort of comprehensive sanctions?

Basildon Peta : Well, you know the swift system, I'm sure you use it there, which facilitates banking transactions across the world. One good example, as one economist has suggested here, is to exclude Zimbabwe out of the swift system. There would be no money to benefit the regime at all. Any kind of sanctions that can help, I must say, I would support that. Remember, I was the first to call for sanctions in Zimbabwe in 1998 when Ray Choto and Mark Chavanduka were tortured by the army. The rule of law was not being respected and judges were being harassed. I was not calling for comprehensive economic sanctions then, but some kind of sanctions which are in place, the travel sanctions, to just voice concern, for the international community to just voice concern at what the regime was doing. Those sanctions are now in place and I am saying that well we can do much, much better.

I don't buy the argument that it is the people who will suffer. The WFP can always continue with it's humanitarian angle but if there are sanctions that can really cripple the regime then the better because the sanctions Mugabe is imposing on the poor people of Zimbabwe are much, much more painful than economic sanctions that would hurt him and his cronies. It's a personal view, it's very controversial, it's a very unpopular view, but I insist that anything that anybody can do with leverage, anyone with leverage, to reign in this government today or tomorrow the better than letting Mugabe continue in power ruining Zimbabwe as he is doing, I think it's unacceptable. We need a new beginning and this man must go out and this is my own personal perspective. It's tragic that the European Union is going to invite him for this summit

Violet: In Portugal.

Basildon Peta: In Portugal this year, totally tragic. I have interviewed a lot of Diplomats here who ask me 'what can we do, what can we do?' Here they have an excellent opportunity to send a very strong message across to the world that they will not fraternise with dictators, particularly wretched dictators like Mugabe, but, what do they do? They invite the guy. They are going to invite him, Portugal has said they will invite him, so, you see.

Violet: And Geoff, your thoughts on this? Is the Diaspora oiling the regime and what are your thoughts on the sanctions issue that Basildon has just raised?

Geoff Hill: Well, going to the first one, I don't think too many people are sending money back through official channels and that's because Gideon Gono has still got this ridiculous exchange rate where if you send money back through the bank you get this tiny exchange rate. So, people are sending either hard currency back into the hands of their relatives or they are sending groceries, that's the way to do it. As Basildon was saying, rather send groceries. I think in terms of regime change, let me give you an analogy, you are stuck away for medical help, you have a patient who has a rotting tooth that is causing enormous pain. You don't have anaesthetic; all you have is a box of aspirin and a pair of dental pliers. You can continue giving that patient aspirin day after day after day to remove the pain of the tooth, or you can use the dental pliers without aesthetic and extract that tooth, enormously painful, but once the tooth is out, the pain is gone and the healing can start. I would agree with Basildon that we need to extract the tooth. Yes, it's going to be painful for Zimbabwe but better a short regime of comprehensive sanctions then endlessly trying to just administer aspirin to a patient that is in agony. I think it would be much better; and it's easy for us, both sitting outside, we are not sitting inside the country, but, even if I was inside I would say the same thing. Better extract the tooth, better the short sharp pain and get it over with; you can't keep on treating a rotten tooth with aspirin.

Violet: We'll have to continue on this issue some other time, but I have one other question that I wanted to ask Geoff on the issue of the price controls and since you are in South Africa. Is the South African business sector principled on this issue? You know, because we've been asking why the South African government has been quiet about the situation in Zimbabwe. But, what about the South African businesses?

Geoff Hill: No they haven't been silent and there has been a lot of outrage in Business Day and in business newspapers I think those with investment in Zimbabwe are hoping they won't be nationalised, and people have the right to invest wherever they want to, and, if Makro want to be in Zim they can be there, if Barclays Bank want to be in Zimbabwe, they can be there. I think the kind of organisations you want to look at are Old Mutual who own 23% of Zimbabwe newspapers, they are actually investing in the propaganda machine that props up the regime. That's completely different, that's like Barclays Bank buying defence bonds in South Africa during apartheid, which they did. That is unacceptable and I think they will be held to account once Zimbabwe is free, for that. But, to the rest of it, they have a right to invest and they have a right to take whatever risks they want. But, no, business here has been vocal and it has been complaining about the price controls but they are trying desperately to make sure that their stocks aren't nationalised there which could well be the next step.

Basildon Peta: I am reading an interesting letter here Violet in Citizen Newspaper from an angry writer addressed to South African companies in Zimbabwe like Makro and OK, SPA and others. And, he is warning them that they face the spectre of being boycotted by South Africans angry at their oiling of the Zimbabwe regime, as Geoff is saying. Yes, they have been vocal, they have said a few things in the paper; only recently. But, as Geoff said about Old Mutual, I think the South African business sector has a moral responsibility to take a principled stand on the rights abuses in Zimbabwe. You have the situation where companies like Impala Platinum and others are pouring their money in Zimbabwe. Impala Platinum issued a very offensive statement a few weeks ago saying 'oh, they are not being affected by the crisis in Zimbabwe; their only problem is with electricity'.

These are companies which have no conscience, in my view. They put money ahead of anything else and I would have been happier if the South African business sector were to take a more principled stand and say 'well, we are going to withhold our investments up until Mr Mugabe changes'. Remember Tsvangirai warned them when he was here a while ago. He said well, the deals you are entering into with this regime, there's no guarantee that if a new dispensation emerges in Zimbabwe these deals will be honoured. I just hope and pray Mr Tsvangirai will be President one of these days and implements that threat and reverse some of these deals that these companies here would have entered into with this regime.

Violet: Well, I would have wanted to talk about the opposition's role in all this, but I have run out of time, so maybe one of these days I will ask the two of you to join us again on Hot Seat, but in the meantime, Basildon Peta and Geoff Hill; it's been a pleasure having you on this programme.

Basildon : Many thanks.

Geoff Hill: Well it's been good talking to you, I must go and take my dinner now and, I'm actually eating chicken so I'm going to put jongwe mupoto, vhara lid and faka moto! And that's not a political statement it's just what I'm doing for supper.

Violet & Basildon: (Laughs)

Violet Gonda: No, thank you very much Geoff and Basildon.

Basildon : OK, tichaonana.

Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa 's Hot Seat programme (17 July 07). Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

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