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Transcript of 'Hot Seat' interview with MDC Secretary General Tendai Biti
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
April 25, 2008

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat280408.htm

Violet Gonda: Tendai Biti the Secretary General of the MDC is my guest on the programme Hot Seat today. Welcome Tendai.

Tendai: Thank you Violet.

Violet: Let me start by asking about your present situation as many people are wondering about your status in Zimbabwe , do you feel safe or have you taken up residence outside the country?

Tendai: Well I have a lot of work to do. It was important that we carry our story, that no one privatizes our story and that no one reinterprets our story and so I have had extensive meetings. Here in South Africa I have met the Congress of South African Trade Unions, the South African Communist Party and a few hours ago I was in a lengthy meeting with Secretary General of the ANC Cde Mantashe. I have also been meeting the civil society from Zimbabwe in South Africa and doing a lot of press work. But more importantly I have been gallivanting on the continent. I have been to Ghana , I have been to Kenya , I have been to Zambia - during the Mulungushi conference and to a few other African countries.

These are the kind of things that are very difficult to do at home and these are the kind of things that are more problematic to try and de-construct when you are at home. But of course the situation at home is a war zone. I am aware that they have got a hit list and I am aware that they have people that they have targeted - that they want to put inside and lock inside. I will go back home and I suspect they will lock me inside. So I want to be as useful as I can before I go back home because I may not know what will happen to me. But we have been there before. We were there last year on March 11 when they beat us up. Every year since 2000 I have been in prison. There is no prison in Harare that I don ' t know. So we will go back and confront the dictator but this work that we are doing right now is important.

Violet: There are numerous press reports saying you and Mr Morgan Tsvangirai are in virtual exile. Do you know when you will return to Zimbabwe exactly?

Tendai: Well the President has been very busy. As you know he has virtually visited every country in the region - Botswana , Zambia , Mozambique - he was in Mozambique yesterday and today, South Africa . He was in Nigeria , he has been to Ghana and we are basically doing the same job - which is articulating our story because there is a coterie of people that could at least represent us. So we are telling our story and remember this is not opposition politics anymore. This is about a transition and how you carefully manage that transition. So we are not in exile. We have not sort asylum from anyone and we will not seek asylum from anyone but we will go back home. We are aware of the trumped up, fictitious documents that they have been authoring. We are aware that they want to destroy our Movement in the same manner that they destroyed ZAPU.

They are busy beating up our people, they are busy killing our people and they are busy burning peoples' homes. Harvest House (MDC headquarters) at the present moment has been turned into a refugee centre. So it 's the old matrix which they did and applied to ZAPU. You beat the supporters and then you beat the Movement itself. You destroy it morally, physically, mentally, spiritually and then you force the same people to accept an unpalatable package. So we have walked this road before but we will not be seduced to take any short cuts and we will not accept to take the same route that they used against ZAPU.

Violet: And Tendai you said you have been "gallivanting" across Africa .Is the tide in Africa changing and do you believe it i s to do with your efforts?

Tendai: The tide has definitely changed. In fact I would argue that it changed even before this election. But what the people of Zimbabwe did in almost impossible conditions was to show that you can defeat the dictator and you can defeat the dictator in peaceful, non-violent peaceful change. That five minutes in the ballot box on the 29th of March 2008 was freedom and our people used pens instead of bombs and they struck a blow at the dictator. So we have been vindicated. The people of Zimbabwe have been vindicated. Everything that we have been saying in the last 15 years that: We have a dictator; that this dictator is unpopular and that we want change - has been vindicated. So there is no problem with that argument, it is yesterday ' s debate. Today ' s debate is of course 'what is the way forward' and I suspect you are going to ask me questions on that.

But I think it is gratifying - I have done radio interviews in South Africa , in Kenya , in Ghana , in other African countries and you are shocked by the level of transformation, you are shocked by the level of universality of African opinion against the dictator, against the gerontocracy . And I would say for someone like myself who was involved in the anti-apartheid Movement that in the minds of many African people Mugabe is exactly on par with the apartheid state, with the apartheid regime - that is a thing of the past that has done injustice to its people and a thing that will go whether he likes it or not.

So the response particularly of the citizenship, particularly of the Wananahoyi, particularly of the Wananchi (Kenyans) has been amazing and that includes Zambia and that includes . . . (Interrupted)

Violet: I understand you actually had a meeting with Kenyan Prime Minister Raila Odinga. What did you ask him and what did he have to say about the situation in Zimbabwe ?

Tendai: Well it was a very historic meeting in that our delegation was the first to meet him. It was his first official job as a Prime Minister so in that respect it was a very historic meeting at the Prime Minister's office in Nairobi . I think that he is a dedicated and committed Pan Africanist who fully understands what we are going through and as I said to him we were proud to be in Nairobi .

His DNA is the DNA of the opposition. In other words his Movement like our Movement represents Movements in the post colonial state in the neo colonial state who are fighting a tired Nationalism, who are fighting exhausted nationalism. I've always argued together with others that nationalism agenda beyond the aspect of democratization, beyond the aspect of one man one vote is very limited and in most African situations the revolution of nationalism begins to eat its own children. And in our case in the Zimbabwean case the revolution is not eating its children the revolution is eating the grandchildren of its grandchildren. I am a great great grandchild to Robert Mugabe. Nelson Chamisa is a great great grandchild to Robert Mugabe; Violet Gonda is a great great grandchild to Robert Mugabe so the revolution is eating its great great grandchildren.

So our Movements therefore are important Movements in that they are dealing with a form, a new matrix. The matrix of African oppression, the matrix of African failure, the matrix of founding fathers who had a crab-like grip or a crocodile grip on the State. And how you unpack that, how you reinterpret that and how you find that is a challenge and you find that there is no book, there is no dictionary, there is no encyclopedia that you can look to for answers unlike the struggle against colonialism which had precedent - which you could look into a book, which you could safely challenge. So it's difficult it takes its toll on yourself as an individual as a person but there is nothing as gratifying as knowing that history is using you, the people of Zimbabwe are using you. It's also humbling when you know that you are in the middle of history and you are nothing but a servant of history of the people.

Violet: But Tendai going back to the question that I asked about Raila Odinga - what exactly do you want from these African governments? The reason I am asking this is because there are people who say when all is said and done, to date, there have only been talk shops from Africa from African Union or the SADC region and that African governments have not done much to assist the people of Zimbabwe ?

Tendai: That ' s an armchair a-historical analysis. The struggle for democratization whether in the pre-independence matrix or in the post-independence matrix is not an event. It is a process. So you are not going to expect an immediate result. We fought apartheid for over a hundred years. The ANC for instance was formed in 1912 but democratization only came to South Africa in 1994. Independence in Zimbabwe only came on the 18 th of April 2000 sorry, 18 th of April 1980 and of course you've got other situations - the situation in Zambia and the situations in other countries.

So this is a process and even getting to a situation where Mugabe is totally delegitimized - Mugabe is the Frankenstein in the region, Mugabe is the sick man of Africa - that has not come easily. The fact that under more conducive circumstances, the circumstances of June 2000, the circumstances of March 2002, we could not defeat the dictator, we managed to defeat the dictator on the 29 th of March 2008 is an acknowledgement this is a process. So one must not underestimate and one must not seek to undermine the work that we are doing and the positions that are being taken by African leaders.

Speaking for Prime Minister Odinga in particular, he was very clear; in fact he has gone on record publicly to say that Mugabe is an embarrassment and that the new Africa has no room for dinosaurs like Mugabe. I think that he of all the leaders has actually been more outspoken. He has promised concrete action that he will raise the issue with his cabinet and that he will seek to use his wise counsel and influence to ensure that there is a meeting of the African Union as soon as possible. And again that you cannot say is talk shop more so when you consider that the linchpin, the stanchion, the midfield of the Mugabe regime has been its reliance on Africans, its reliance on SADC and its amazing how that goodwill is lost it is gone in a short period of time. It is amazing that in every capital in the region where we have been the doors have been opened and it is not deliberate Violet that you are not going to find us in Brussels , you are not going to find us in London . If we are going to cross the Atlantic it will be to go to the United Nations and to the United Nations Security Council and you know six months ago it would not be possible, six months ago it . . . (Interrupted)

Violet: Tendai while you are on that issue let me go down South and find out your thoughts on President Thabo Mbeki who has used the South African State to protect Mugabe on forums like the United Nations that you have just mentioned - where South Africa has moved for motions of no debate and in other forums. Thabo Mbeki has shown absolute consistency in using a ruse called quiet diplomacy to the exact opposite of what many believe. Now with that background, the region has said Mbeki stays as mediator even though you as the MDC have appealed for President Levy Mwanawasa to step in. Obviously South Africa is important but Mbeki has been silent while people have been killed and arrested in Zimbabwe . Is SADC imposing Mbeki on you?

Tendai: Well I like the way you put the question because you r question is a conclusion. The conclusion you make which is your own conclusion is that Mbeki has abused Zimbabweans. So proceeding on that matrix, we have said it very carefully, we have said it very carefully because President Mbeki is the President of South Africa, President Mbeki is a Nationalist, President Mbeki is a man who has committed his entire life to the struggle. If you take him out of the struggle you have taken a fish out of water. So we respect him which is why for a long time we have resisted having any personal - if you like - confrontation, personal acrimony with President Mbeki. But of course people's patience has run out which is why I am not surprised that the National Executive of the MDC took the decision that it took that the trust had been broken between the people of Zimbabwe and President Mbeki. When trust has been broken you cannot have that particular individual working and acting as a mediator, an arbitrator or a facilitator and remember mediation, facilitation or arbitration are voluntary processes unlike going to court when you are served with summons - where you have to defend yourself whether you like it or not by a judge. You have to appear whether you like it or not. Arbitration, facilitation and mediation are voluntary and it is fine for SADC to impose the facilitator and we appreciate this but we must underline the fact that these are voluntary processes. I think one must understand the level of our frustration and some of the comments you have already made - the role of South Africa in blocking any efforts to deal decisively with the dictator in Zimbabwe .

I am concerned particularly with the failure to acknowledge the truth. Right now its 24 days before the election result has been announced. That will not happen in South Africa ; that will not happen anywhere; that would not happen even in Kenya where the election was stolen; but there is deafening silence, in fact there is artificial construction that there is no crisis.

Our people right now Violet, 3 million people are in the Diaspora. If you go to the United Kingdom , every second nursing home is staffed by Zimbabweans. If you come here to South Africa where I am in, every restaurant is dominated by Zimbabweans and these are doctors, these are engineers, these are scientists who are being forced to do these things and all we are asking is to say, if yesterday we fought the enemy and the aberration of apartheid, surely we must be strong enough, decent enough, truthful enough, strong enough, equitable enough, bold enough to fight the aberration of black misrule and that ' s what we are asking our brothers in the region. That ' s what we are asking for our brothers on the continent.

Violet: Is it true that the ANC leader Jacob Zuma is more interested in solving the problems in Zimbabwe than Thabo Mbeki has been?

Tendai: I don ' t want to put a chasm between Comrade Zuma and Comrade Mbeki but all I can say is that the ANC, the South African Communist Party have been decent and also I have looked at some of the statements and I think they have been at pains to show that there is no difference between President Mbeki ' s position and President Zuma ' s counsel. But all I can say and I am not so sure that I should say this publicly, you know, I have sat eight months in the SADC dialogue facilitated by President Mbeki and I have heard these things from the people here. I am amazed by the interest of the South African Comrades in the Zimbabwe situation and I feel hopeful that a solution will arise. And one must not underplay the role that President Mbeki played in facilitating the dialogue to some of us. Welsh (Ncube) and I spent literally an entire lifetime last year working very hard to do the best for our country.

Violet: And speaking about that dialogue,for the first time the results of the elections were counted and posted outside the individual polling stations and you were able to actually announce your victories as a result of that. Should President Thabo Mbeki take some credit for that?

Tendai: Well I want to make one thing very clear there Violet, dialogue failed that dialogue failed. The purpose of the dialogue was to create conditions in respect of which Zimbabwe will hold an uncontested election. That was the purpose of the dialogue. Vis-à-vis that we failed, we failed. This election was held in an un-free and unfair environment and you know I can take a whole day talking about that. So the dialogue failed but however there were things that we agreed with, there were things that were agreed upon in particular the reform of the electoral law, you know small things.

Our attitude during the process of the dialogue was that; look this struggle is a process so we will seat this incrementally. Every small thing that we are going to take from this table we will take and beg, which is why we agreed to amendments to the Electoral Act, amendments to the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act, amendments to the Broadcasting Services Act, amendments to the Public Order and Security Act. The ideal situation would have been to repeal those legislations because they are fascist pieces of legislations but the negotiator is only as good as his outside context, the negotiator is only as strong as those who have given him a mandate to negotiate to negotiate. And as long as we didn't have guns and as long as we didn't have five million people that we could put in the streets then our negotiating team was not strong. We were only strong technically because we were over prepared we were better prepared than ZANU PF.

But what we then said as a negotiating team was that we will take everything, every small little thing and believe it or not Violet, one of the smallest things that we put in almost inconspicuously was amendment to Section 64 of the Electoral Act - the new provision in Section 64.1a that says that the election results have to be posted outside the polling stations. The other thing that we put which appeared very small at that particular time but has had fundamental effect was the provision we put in Section 54a of the Electoral Act which says that before voting takes place ballot papers received at the polling stations must be counted and serial numbers recorded. At that time these appeared to be small things but I can assure you Violet, this election would not have achieved what we did without those very small fortuitous gains. So I am very grateful that at least something came out from a process that largely failed and of course President Mbeki is right to claim the credit. We cannot take that away from him . . .

Violet: Sorry to interrupt you there Tendai but I am running out of time and I need your opinion on a few other issues. On the issue of the way forward what do you think needs to be done to make Robert Mugabe and the Joint Operations Command to actually wake up and face the reality that they no longer have the mandate of the people?

Tendai: Well, my mother is a Christian, my mother says, "That's not your problem that's God's problem." and I tell my mother, it is our problem and God helps those who help themselves. I'll tell you the following Violet; Mugabe doesn't have a choice, his choice is either to assist the people's victory on the 29 th March 2008, allow a new government to be formed and he will go home to Zvimba to farm and nobody will follow him, nobody will be vindictive or retributive. Or alternately he hangs on, but the more he hangs on the more he guarantees himself a dishonourable exit because attitudes are hardening very quickly and opinions are hardening very quickly and the weight of African opinion which is already gathered against him will now coalesce into decisive access. So Mugabe really doesn't have a choice. His choice is either to go now or to go dishonourably later.

And there are four things that are critical Violet; the first thing is that we have won this election and that is beyond a reasonable doubt. The second thing Violet is this economy which he doesn't control anymore. Where in the world have you ever heard of real inflation in a country that has not gone in a war of real inflation of 500 000%? Where in the world have you heard of a situation where the economy operates at 5% of normal production capacity? If your body Violet was operating at 5% you'll be dead, you'll be clinically dead. So the economy is critical. Third is isolation. The isolation of the West was okay because Mugabe survived that, but he cannot survive the isolation of SADC. He cannot survive the isolation of the region and I want to give you one example of that Violet; look at the way that Chinese ship was chased away from Durban and no African country could grant it the right to harbour. That's a reflection Violet of the capacity of the region. But there it was not just the official of South African government, what happened there was that SATAWU the South African Transport and Allied Workers Union refused to deal with that ship. So all I am saying Violet is that the region either through its governments or through its workers or through its people is going to react and has already reacted and Mugabe cannot survive that. The fourth thing is the internal collapse or civil war in ZANU PF itself. There is a war in ZANU PF, the whole thing has collapsed and this is only Mugabe's force that is keeping it together. ZANU PF won't last, it is going to implode and explode as a matter of urgency. The fifth thing is of course the fact that we are organising as a political party, we are organising as civic society, we are organising as Zimbabweans and we are ready for the dictator. So Mugabe will not last.

Violet: The regime is reversing your gains through violence. What sort of countermeasures are you taking to ensure that the momentum is not reversed?

Tendai: We are having a National Executive Committee tomorrow. We are sending our leaders; I've just been speaking to many civic organisations today who are going to set up what they are calling a coalition against resistance to fight back. There are people in the villages right now feeding people. As I said before Harvest House is an International Red Cross centre right now. There are hundreds of people that have had there houses burnt so civic society and the MDC itself are moving to simply say to people we have hope. I've just been talking to people from Zimbabwe who are so excited about the fact that they have been watching the work we are doing in Kenya and so forth. So there is hope I would say Violet that we are in a very strong position, we are in a very, very strong position and I can assure you that it is my last word Violet that there is a God out there.

Violet: And finally Tendai what is your concept of a government of national unity in the interim?

Tendai: We have said that we have no problem with a transitional government but our terms are as follows: Mugabe cannot be part of it, Mugabe belongs to the past he is a Hyena. The new Zimbabwe belongs to Cheetahs so that is our answer basically that the new Zimbabwe needs everyone to be a shareholder. You cannot afford a winner take all situation. You need everyone together to be shareholders so that we can reconstruct a Zimbabwe that we are proud of, not a Zimbabwe that belongs to the MDC, not a Zimbabwe that belongs to ZANU PF because that isolates and alienates others. It has to be a Zimbabwe that belongs to everyone but it cannot be a transitional government in which Mugabe is at the helm. Quite clearly Morgan Tsvangirai won this election so he has to be the dominant player but everyone must play a role in it. So we are drawing a line vis-à-vis Mugabe. But in principle we have no problem with it.

Violet: Thank you very much Tendai Biti.
Tendai: Thanks Violet.

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