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Transcript of 'Hot Seat' with Mr Morgan Tsvangirai
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
April 11, 2008

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat110408.htm

Journalist Violet Gonda interviews MDC President Mr Morgan Tsvangirai on the situation in Zimbabwe where he says there is now a de facto military coup.

Violet Gonda: We welcome opposition leader Mr Morgan Tsvangirai back on the programme Hot Seat. Hello and thank you for joining us Mr Tsvangirai.

Morgan Tsvangirai: Violet, I am not opposition leader I am the leader of the country.

Violet: Well Congratulations we will talk about that shortly.

Tsvangirai: Alright. Ok.

Violet: So much has happened since the last time we spoke just before the elections. How are you doing first of all with all the controversy that has surrounded the Presidential election?

Tsvangirai: Well Violet the so-called controversy is totally unnecessary. Mugabe called an election in spite of a plea for him to extend it to June and unilaterally against the SADC advice called an election and we participated in that election and we won in spite of all the odds against us. Now the problem is that perhaps he didn't expect this to happen, he is digging in against the will of the people and that is what is causing this election impasse.

Violet: Now SADC has convened a special meeting on Zimbabwe . What do you expect?

Tsvangirai: Well I expect SADC leaders to hear both sides of the story. To hear candidate Mugabe and to hear candidate Tsvangirai about what happened and where is the stalemate - where are the bottlenecks. After which they will have to conclude that the will of the people must be respected. This is what the SADC covenant says - that the will of the people must be respected and in this case there is an attempt by President Mugabe and his cohorts to undermine the will of the people.

Violet: Are both political candidates - yourself and Robert Mugabe going to be present at this SADC meeting or you are going to meet separately?

Tsvangirai: No we will be there, we will be there. The case cannot be one-sided. We are talking of a disputed election process here at which there are two contestants; one Mr Robert Mugabe candidate for ZANU PF and one MDC candidate Morgan Tsvangirai.

Violet: And you are currently travelling in the region right now, how are you being successful in garnering support in SADC?

Tsvangirai: Well there is alot of understanding that 12 days after the elections the results haven't been announced and that in the process the other candidate is busy subverting the independence of ZEC (Zimbabwe Electoral Commission), even if that ZEC has also got doubts about this partisanship. So the thing is that the SADC leaders understand the basis for this dispute - which is that the results have not been announced and in the same process ZANU PF behaves as if it has insider information about what is happening and therefore is taking decisions based on the insider information.

Violet: And your Secretary General Tendai Biti is reported saying he hoped SADC would ask Robert Mugabe to stand down? How realistic is this?

Tsvangirai: Well they don't have to ask Robert Mugabe to stand down. They have to ask Robert Mugabe to respect the will of the people and concede defeat. This is what has happened. He has lost the election and the normal thing is for him to respect the will of the people. It is very, very realistic. In fact I am surprised that once an election has been conducted one would dispute when one was in charge of the electoral process. It's unheard of.

Violet: So what is your game plan if Mugabe says he is not going to step down and not respect the will of the people?

Tsvangirai: Well he would have ruled by decree and according to SADC he would have subverted the will of the people. In fact that is what has happened - there has been a de facto military coup in Zimbabwe against the will of the people. That is unacceptable in terms of SADC Norms and Standards.

Violet: Do you think there is now a constitutional crisis in Zimbabwe ?

Tsvangirai: There is no constitutional crisis. There is the overthrow of a constitutional government and the overthrow of the constitutional government in other words - in layman's terms - there has been a coup in Zimbabwe against the will of the people and therefore that is against African and SADC standards.

Violet: There are reports that war veterans have started invading the last remaining white owned commercial farms and that members of the security forces have been deployed countrywide. What is your plan of dealing with the military that is strongly behind Robert Mugabe?

Tsvangirai: It's not the military which is strongly behind Mugabe. It is a few military officers who are behind Robert Mugabe. The rest of the army wants to respect its independence, its professionalism and I must say I have good contacts within the military and they say that there are probably one or two or three senior officers who believe - who are so political that they put the politics before their military professionalism and this is very unfortunate. And I as leader of the country believe that the military should respect the civilian authority, should respect the will of the people and then if it is a question of their professional, institutional requirements then they have to be dealt with like that.

Violet: But it also appears that ZEC or in fact that the country is now under the control of the Joint Operations Command and it seems Mugabe remains quiet on this score. Is he still in control? Do you know if he is still in control?

Tsvangirai: Well he has lost control that is why the military is doing what it is doing; going to interfere with the work of ZEC, arresting ZEC officials; relocating the work of the verification of the Presidential ballots to a secret place where our representatives are not present. They have literally overthrown the civilian authority.

Violet: And in a twist of irony the Mugabe regime is now accusing its own ZEC of manipulating the elections in favor of the MDC. What are your thoughts on this?

Tsvangirai: Well it's like the pot calling the kettle black. They are the incumbent, they were in charge of ZEC and they were in charge of the whole election machinery. We were actually working against a very serious situation tilted against us. Now when they have lost isn't it the highest of ironies that they say that ZEC has rigged the elections against us. The results were posted all over the polling stations. We collected them and I don't know what this whole accusation is.

Violet: Have you been present as a political party (president) to see the results that ZEC has or has ZEC privatised the verification of the presidential election results.

Tsvangirai: They have actually privatised in fact they have re located from where our representatives were. They moved from that to a private location where we don't know where it is and they are now in the process of the so called recounting, and how do you recount before you have known the full results. The law says you can only recount within 48 hours once you have known the full results and that you challenge that it should be recounted. Now here is a situation where ZANU PF is taking control of the electoral process in its favour and manipulating the results. So it doesn't matter whether ZEC is going to announce, as far as we are concerned the outcome is already manipulated and therefore there is no creditability.

Violet: So what options do the people of Zimbabwe have? They have cast their votes but their wishes are not being respected, is civil disobedience an option?

Tsvangirai Well I think that what is important is for the people to remain calm, we are dealing with the issues of the results and once the result is known they are free to express themselves. But we don't want, we would rather caution against opportunistic reaction which Mugabe is looking to suppress and violently respond to that.

Violet: But some have asked - where is the outrage? So is civil disobedience the strategy of your party?

Tsvangirai: No but you see the thing is how do you have civil disobedience when you have cast your vote and you know that you have won and you don't know the results. How do you have civil disobedience under those circumstances? So that's why we are cautioning against unnecessary or opportunistic reaction which can even lead to the Mugabe's repression and what we are saying is that at the end of the day they should wait , they should be restraint full until the results is known.

Violet: I understand that you have asked for United Nations intervention, what exactly do you want the UN to do?

Tsvangirai: Well I didn't say in particular the United Nations. I said

If outsiders should come and intervene to try to persuade this regime that it has no legitimacy if it continues the way it is doing and that it should concede defeat to the electoral result that is there and is known by everybody.

Violet: But what exactly can they do. I am asking this question because we have received scores of email from our listeners and readers who have said they are tired of talk shops as they merely result in empty declarations from the international community. They want more assertive action; can you persuade them differently based on your interactions with the various heads of state?

Tsvangirai: Well I am sure that they have influence and the fact that in March last year they were able to convene an extraordinary meeting which allowed President Mbeki to be the mediator. I am sure that they will use the same influence. Zimbabwe is not an island and Mugabe knows that. If there is collective will on the part of SADC leaders to put pressure on him he will listen.

Violet: Now let me go back to the issue of the results, your critics say it is irresponsible of you to announce the results of the elections and claiming victory before the official results had been announced.

Tsvangirai: No No No No.

Violet: What is your reaction to this?

Tsvangirai: In normal democracies where results are posted out for everyone to see we will collect those results it's in the public domain. How is it irresponsible when it is already in the public domain? The only thing is that we had a mechanism of collecting those results and putting it to the public but we said we will wait for ZEC to confirm those results. So what we are waiting for is confirmation and there is no reason whilst the results reflect that we have won not to claim that victory.

Violet: There have been conflicting reports on the final tally; some reports say you won with 50.3% while some figures put it at 49% and some even at 57%. What are your predictions?

Tsvangirai: Well according to the final figures we have put across, it's 50.3% which is beyond any doubt a decisive victory.

Violet: So are you surprised that you won the elections given the repressive situation in Zimbabwe

Tsvangirai: No I think that the people of Zimbabwe set the rules and voted against the government and voted for change, it was overwhelming in spite of the obstacles I think the MDC performed extremely well.

Violet: So how would you answer people who ask that if you know you have won and you have the people's mandate why not declare yourself President and start performing the tasks of the President?

Tsvangirai: Well this is exactly what we have said that we have won these elections; we are only waiting for ZEC to confirm it. I am not ZEC and therefore the only one who can confirm my victory is ZEC which has got the jurisdiction responsibility in confirming it. But in terms of declaration, under normal circumstances, President Mugabe should already have conceded defeat but he doesn't want to concede defeat because he doesn't want to leave. So until such time that ZEC is able to announce a definitive position, we are all handicapped by it.

Violet: It is also reported that there may be a re-run or a run-off. Would your party agree to a re-run of the presidential election given the flawed nature of the first round?

Tsvangirai: How do we have a re-run when we have won decisively and besides there is a clear winner here? If I am 49% and Mugabe is 43% and the other one is 12% the clear winner is there - and that is Morgan Tsvangirai. And the election officer in terms of the law has to declare who is the decisive winner and I am the decisive winner even under circumstances where we are below 50. So I think that this argument of a re-run does not exist.

Violet: What about a run-off since the regime has also been pushing for a run-off, would you accept a run-off?

Tsvangirai: How do I expect a run-off in circumstances where the regime is already militarising the whole election process by deploying army officers to be in charge of Provinces, to be in charge of Constituencies and already embarking on a major destabilisation and intimidation exercise. A run-off means that there is no decisive winner, so if there is a decisive winner the question of a run-off does not arise.

Violet: I know you are rushing Mr Tsvangirai; I have only two final questions. The state media alleges that you are receiving instructions from the West. Are you a puppet of the West?

Tsvangirai: Receiving instructions in what way?

Violet: The Herald reports, for example, that you'd let German bankers into the country to run the RBZ.. (interrupted)

Tsvangirai: Violet if you believe the Herald, you can believe anything. The Herald has been a mouthpiece of ZANU PF which has been at the forefront of vilifying the MDC and yet by and large there have been people who have written us off. Who have written the political obituary of Morgan Tsvangirai and the MDC, but we have proven them wrong. Under all the odds we have beaten them and to me I get my mandate from the people and not from anybody else.

Violet: Finally what can you say about the mood and the will of the people at this point?

Tsvangirai: Patiently waiting, anxiously waiting for the results to be finalized, to be confirmed by ZEC. They know they have won, the people's victory is certain and that we will set a new direction for the country in order to respond to their basic needs of food and jobs and other basic necessities. They are looking forward to a new Zimbabwe . In fact as you go around the country; the spirit of a new Zimbabwe is already gripping the nation.

Violet: And what happens if Mugabe says he is not going to accept the will of the people?

Tsvangirai: Well he will then be ruling by decree - what's the difference between a military coup? And that's what the situation is; he will even have confirmed that he is illegitimate and that he is a dictator who is ruling against the will of the people.

Violet: Thank you very much Mr Morgan Tsvangirai.

Tsvangirai: You are welcome Violet.

Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

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