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Simba Makoni's interview with South Africa's E. TV
Written/Produced by Peter Moyo
March 11, 2008

http://zimgreats.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2536&Itemid=1

(Please note that the logs have not yet been edited)

Debora Patta
We are joined now from Harare, Zimbabwe by presidential contender, Simba Makoni. Thank you so much for joining us here on 3rd Degree. Mr. Makoni, why now, why the challenge to Mr. Robert Mugabe's presidency at this late stage?

Simba Makoni
Well I don't know what you mean at this late stage, the nomination was only on the 15th of February when the processes to have a candidate for ZANU PF were bulldozed into the ordinary congress. One was left with no option but to present oneself as an independent candidate. And that was on time for the nominations on the 15th of February

Debora Patta
In the December congress though, would that not have been the place to challenge Mr. Mugabe where he was endorsed as the official candidate for ZANU PF?

Simba Makoni
Well I don't know whether challenge is the right word, yes that would have been the appropriate time for candidacy to be considered but that opportunity was denied the congress

Debora Patta
And what about a meeting that you supposedly had with President Mugabe, what was the content of that meeting, did you assure him at that meeting that you would not be standing against him?

Simba Makoni
I did not assure him of anything.

Debora Patta
And what was the content of that meeting?

Simba Makoni
We discussed the first election that was rife in the media about alternative candidacy. I told him that I was in conversation with people who believed like I believe that the country needed new leadership and that I felt at the time that that process should be done through the party.

Debora Patta
If Zimbabwe elects you as president, what will be different under your presidency?

Simba Makoni
Well there are a number of propositions we are making to the people of Zimbabwe, one we want re- engagement with the people with each other, we want to eliminate the fear that veils their lives everyday. We want the unity and the coherence of the nation that marked our independence nearly 30 years ago but most importantly, we want the country to work again where all aspects of our lives are practically . . . cohesion, cultural integrity but more important physical infrastructure and economic capacity are collapsing and we want to restore all that and that is why we are offering ourselves under the banner of Mavambo, Kusile, Dawn so that we can renew our country and our prospects

Debora Patta
How would you characterize President Robert Mugabe's reign so far?

Simba Makoni
Well it is in two parts. The first part was good, it fed the people, it uplifted the condition of life in Zimbabwe. The second part is characterized by hardship, by alienation by polarization, by fear and by distress, poverty and disease and that is why I am here.

Debora Patta
And yet you were part of ZANU PF for nearly 30 years and yet you never voiced these opinions when you were within the party publicly?

Simba Makoni
Well that qualification publicly is very important but not everything needs to be done publicly, some of us believed in working within the party to support, to facilitate to promote change and that's exactly what I did.

Debora Patta
How did you do that specifically within the party?

Simba Makoni
Through discussions that we had in party structures and during the time I was in government also in government structures, I expressed the view that we needed to do things differently and follow different policies and we need to conduct ourselves in a manner that is in service to the people

Debora Patta
So how do you convince a Zimbabwean who has been suffering under the Mugabe regime that you are the man for the job when they don't know your views and your beliefs and how you supposedly challenged Mugabe over the past at least 8 years?

Simba Makoni
Well I am not sure that you are right that the Zimbabweans don't know my beliefs because Zimbabweans know what I stand for because I have never hidden my position all these years in both my private and public life and I had opportunities to announce myself publicly and did and so I said quite explicitly that this is the direction I feel we should take for Zimbabweans to know me. I am not bringing something unknown to Zimbabweans. I am just reaffirming what they have known me to be all these years

Debora Patta
Did you speak out against the land invasions?

Simba Makoni
I spoke about an orderly, an equitable and transparent land reform programme.

Debora Patta
But my question was did you speak out against the land invasions?

Simba Makoni
I spoke about an orderly, an equitable and transparent land reform programme.

Debora Patta
Would you classify that as speaking out against land invasions?

Simba Makoni
You can choose your words whether they are against, I am for, I am not negative, I act in positive, in constructive terms so I spoke for an orderly and equitable and transparent land reform programme.

Debora Patta
What about human rights abuses, did you speak out against human rights abuses and atrocities over the last eight years?

Simba Makoni
I spoke for the rights of the people, I spoke for the people to be self reliant, I spoke for the people to enjoy the rights of self determination.

Debora Patta
But you did nothing . . .

Simba Makoni
Again I do not construct myself in negative I construct myself positively for good.

Debora Patta
That is all very well but the good was not practiced over the last eight years in Zimbabwe, there were very negative things that were happening, the world was condemning Mugabe's iron rule over Zimbabwe and the question is if you want to be president of this country the past is surely part of who you are and you did not speak out against the negative things?

Simba Makoni
Yes that is why I am saying, you choose to speak against, I choose to speak for, and I have spoken for the good and I have spoken for the right and I have spoken for the correct and I believe that Zimbabweans will make no mistake about what is positive in my conduct.

Debora Patta
But doesn't his go to the character of a president that if you remain silent in the face of atrocities and human rights abuses doesn't that go to the kind of president that you would be, somebody who is not strong enough to stand up against Robert Mugabe' s excesses?

Simba Makoni
Well again, your words are that I did not stand up against. I am saying that I stood up for That is the difference between your approach and mine, I stood up for what was right and what was good and Zimbabweans know that I stood up for and I stood up for what was right. (talking over each other at the end)

Debora Patta
How did you do this Mr. Makoni, I don't understand how you did this?

Simba Makoni
I said that in the fora that I participated in: the fora of the party, in the fora of government and in other fora as well, I have been involved in leadership structures in civil society structures, I am an activist, I participate in causes that uplift human welfare and in all those involvements, I spoke for what was right for our country and its people.

Debora Patta
So would you condemn Robert Mugabe's rule over the past eight years? Repeat question

Simba Makoni
I did not approve of conduct that leads our people to abject poverty and misery

Debora Patta
And the human rights abuses?

Simba Makoni
If it's conduct that leads our people to poverty and misery I disapprove

Debora Patta
Well it's not only about poverty and misery I am talking about people who have been imprisoned for opposing Robert Mugabe's regime, I am talking about people who have suffered in detention even people who have been murdered all in fighting against what they see as the excesses of Mugabe's regime?

Simba Makoni
Will that bring misery and pain?

Debora Patta
So have you spoken out against those murders, I come back to that question, what I am trying to understand Mr. Makoni is in what way are you going to be different to Robert Mugabe, you record has not been to speak out against everything. (talking over each other at the end)

Simba Makoni
I have told you quite clearly that I am going to be different, I will resist you putting word into my mouth. You choose your words to understand what I am saying. I stand for what's right, I stand for what's good and I have done that all my life using every opportunity I have had but you want me to use your words. They are not mine, I stand for and not against.

Debora Patta
And yet you were part of the politburo that ruled Zimbabwe, over the past less than eight years in your case, but at the height of some of the worst atrocities that we saw in Zimbabwe, you were part of the politburo that made decisions?

Simba Makoni
That is correct but you know that leadership is not made up of clones. People are not identical in their views and in their actions even if they are part of the leadership collective, I submitted to the leadership collectively. That did not mean that I was not myself and that I did not speak for what I believed in.

Debora Patta
But even if the collective was immoral practices gross human rights abuses?

Simba Makoni
Well I leave it to you and the listeners and viewers to judge the approach I took, which was to work for change from within and I strove to achieve change from within until it was impossible and difficult for me to do that.

Debora Patta
So it was not as if you had a sudden change of heart?

Simba Makoni
I have been speaking, acting and promoting what was good and right for our people throughout my involvement in public affairs.

Debora Patta
Was there a situation Mr. Makoni in the politburo where people were just too scared to challenge Mugabe?

Simba Makoni
Well I can't speak for other people I can speak for myself that I always spoke for the people of Zimbabwe in any situation I was presented with.

Debora Patta
And how would you respond to criticism that what you are doing now is political opportunism. That it really is an end for Robert Mugabe, so it's pretty easy at the moment to jump on the bandwagon criticizing what happened in the past and promoting yourself for the future

Simba Makoni
I would grant those people their right to think that way. The facts are known by Zimbabweans and Zimbabweans will judge me on the 29th March on the basis of the facts that they know.

Debora Patta
What are your plans to help Zimbabwe's dire economical conditions at the moment?

Simba Makoni
My plans are to restore the rights of the people of Zimbabwe to shape their lives, to work for themselves and their families and the nations and not to wait for some benefactor to put food on their plate and give them what they need when they can do that themselves. In other words, to remove the impediments that hamper them from self determination and self reliance.

Debora Patta
And practically how would you do that, I mean that is a very noble ideal . . .

Simba Makoni
Well first thing we will do is to establish a national authority that harnesses the unity of all our people irrespective of their political formation as long as they subscribe to the vision of Mavambo, Kusile, Dawn. The second thing is we will formulate agencies that will re-empower Zimbabweans to do things for themselves with the help of the national authority. We will engage our international friends so that they can extend support and resources to our efforts but principally it will have to be the efforts of Zimbabweans themselves in all walks of life.

Debora Patta
And what about the opposition party which is very divided at the moment. Somebody like Morgan Tsvangirai, do you regard him as a stooge of the west as ZANU PF has repeatedly said in the past?

Simba Makoni
You better ask ZANU PF that. You have not heard me call anybody names.

Debora Patta
Do you think that he is a stooge of the west?

Simba Makoni
I have not called Morgan Tsvangirai any names.

Debora Patta
That's not my question, whether you have called him names. I am asking, do you think that he is the stooge of the west, do you think that he is at the beck and call of the west?

Simba Makoni
If I thought he was that, I would have called him that.

Debora Patta
Mr. Makoni it is very difficult to judge a presidential candidate if you will not be drawn on any issue?

Simba Makoni
NO I am not refusing to be drawn on any issue. I am refusing to be drawn into using your words for what I do not say. Please give me the chance to speak in my own words in the manner that I know best

Debora Patta
In your own words then, how do you regard Morgan Tsvangirai?

Simba Makoni
In my own words, I have not called Morgan Tsvangirai any names. I have not called President Mugabe any names and I have not called any compatriot any derogatory names.

Debora Patta
Well let's not use any derogatory names, let's talk about facts. What is your opinion of Morgan Tsvangirai as a leader?

Simba Makoni
Morgan Tsvangirai is a patriotic Zimbabwean who has offered himself to work for change in our country in the best way he has deemed appropriate.

Debora Patta
So why should people vote for you and not him?

Simba Makoni
Because I am offering our people the best proposition for our people: for renewal, for re-empowerment for re-engagement and to move forward in a very purposeful and decisive way. To correct the errors of the past.

Debora Patta
If you were to win this election, would you go back . . .

Simba Makoni
When I will win this election, not if.

Debora Patta
If or when you win this election would you go back to join ZANU PF?

Simba Makoni
Why would I want to do that? We are moving forward. I assure that on March 30 when the results of the elections are announced there will be a major realignment in the politics of this country and we will move forward to accommodate that realignment. Those who subscribe to the vision of renewal, we will coalesce together.

Debora Patta
I am not entirely sure what that means, if you can expand a little further?

Simba Makoni
It means that we will place before our people a political process and a political structure that unites and that reconciles, that heals the wounds of the past.

Debora Patta
The reports that suggest that you may join ZANU PF post election, are they wrong?

Simba Makoni
Well I have not heard those suggestions and I don't know who is suggesting that and on what basis are they suggesting that. I am telling you that from March 30, there will be a realignment of the politics of our country and new arrangements will emerge that will enable our country to move forward in togetherness.

Debora Patta
Well reports have come from members of your own team who suggest that this may be policy that come post election you may once again join ZANU PF because your issue is not with ZANU PF but with its current leader, Robert Mugabe.

Simba Makoni
Well I think you better ask those who have suggested that to you to explain it. I am not aware of it.

Debora Patta
So when you say that there will be a re-alignment of political forces, are you saying that won't join ZANU PF, that there will be a new coalition of forces in Zimbabwe?

Simba Makoni
I will effect a new political alignment around the mavambo, kusile, dawn movement

Debora Patta
There have been some threats from within the army, for example army generals, who say that they will not support you if you win. How would you deal with this situation, with instability and with the possibility of even a military coup?

Simba Makoni
Well I have not heard those threats myself but I know that the Zimbabwean armed forces are professional, that they are patriotic, that they are loyal to the will of the people of Zimbabwe and I do not expect them to conduct themselves any different

Debora Patta
But just to go back to that question that if there were those suggestions, how would you deal with it? How would you deal with those kinds of situation because surely as a leader you must be aware of those kinds of threats even if you will not admit it publicly?

Simba Makoni
Absolutely we will deal with it in any way that any national authority would deal with dissent within the law, using the law enforcement agencies of the country, empowered and mandated by the law of the land, strictly and scrupulously within the law

Debora Patta
Now let's look at the issue of a free and fair election. The previous presidential elections in Zimbabwe, there were issues around the freedom and the fairness of your elections. I was there covering that. I was there covering your parliamentary elections as well and certainly there were huge concerns voiced about the freedom and fairness of those elections. Do you think that there is a climate that is conducive to free and fair elections in Zimbabwe right now?

Simba Makoni
Well we expect that the elections will be conducted in a manner that is free and fair. I am aware that there were concerns about past elections and people are concerned about the current environment but we are working with other parties in this contest to ensure that the environment for free and fair elections is improved. That the environment is made conducive to free and fair elections.

Debora Patta
What happens if they are rigged once again?

Simba Makoni
Well I would like to cross that bridge when we get there because I would like to be motivated by positive notions, like I am expecting a free and fair election and I am working towards a free and fair result.

Debora Patta
How would you categorize your relationship with President Robert Mugabe who seems equally convinced that he is going to win this election? Repeat question

Simba Makoni
Well I am afraid that I can't really characterize the relationship. I have not had the opportunity to relate to the president. I have heard what he said about me but they don't pretend for a good relationship but I have no ill feelings about the president, I do not wish him ill, I do not have any negative feelings about him. I am just concerned that he would choose to behave and announce himself in a manner that he is but I respect him and give him the respect that is due to an elder and that is how I regard him.

Debora Patta
Do you think you should harbor some ill will towards Mugabe after all he was the one who lead Zimbabwe into its economic decline, where inflation is soaring and people are starving?

Simba Makoni
No I do not harbor ill will. Remember I am not motivated by negative. I feel sad for him that he has such place in our history. He has such place, such a good place in our early years of our independence that he has squandered that capital in the way that he has in the last few years but that does not justify ill feelings or will. I still respect him for what he is and in our African culture binds us to respect our elders and give them due credence and I accord those to our president but I believe that he has served his useful purpose. Our country deserves renewal, new leadership and that it is time for him to take a rest and allow those of us who still have the energy and the vigor, the vision and the vitality to launch our country on a path of renewal to do exactly that.

Debora Patta
One of the concerns of the opposition party, and Morgan Tsvangirai has said this in the past, is that if he were to become president he would recommend that Robert Mugabe be taken to The Hague and charged with gross human rights abuses. Would you follow this?

Simba Makoni
I think that you can discuss that with Morgan Tsvangirai. You have not heard me suggest anything like that.

Debora Patta
So you don't think that Robert Mugabe needs to be charged with gross human rights abuses for violating human rights on a mass scale?

Simba Makoni
Zimbabwe has effective laws and if anyone should be subjected to the course of the law it will be the Zimbabwean law.

Debora Patta
What does that mean?

Simba Makoni
That is if any citizen of Zimbabwe has committed a crime they will be trialed under the Zimbabwean law.

Debora Patta
Do you think that Robert Mugabe has committed crimes?

Simba Makoni
I would like to receive the evidence that suggest that, that treatment is warranted.

Debora Patta
Let me ask you who your backers are?

Simba Makoni
I want to remind you that I am motivated by the need to move forward in unity and harmony and that our primary motivation is no retribution. That our primary motivation is not inflicting harm or revenge. We are about reconciliation and re-engagement

Debora Patta
But there can only be reconciliation after there has been an acknowledgment of the atrocities and the terrible failures, you can't escape the past of Zimbabwe?

Simba Makoni
I am sure that our process of national healing will provide for that admission and acknowledgement

Debora Patta
My question to you is that you can't escape your past, who Zimbabwe is and where Zimbabwe has come from is integrally tied up in this election?

Simba Makoni
I am quite sure that every nation's history influences its future and we are no different.

Debora Patta
Let me ask you about your backers I understand that you have some senior backers. Who is backing you within the current ZANU PF and externally outside the party, who are your backers?

Simba Makoni
I am in with the support of a large majority of Zimbabweans, Zimbabweans in ZANUPF, Zimbabweans in the MDC, the two of them and Zimbabweans who are not in any political formation. I do not have the time with you to list them all but there are many Zimbabweans who are supporting the kusile, mavambo movement

Debora Patta
We understand that one of those backers was supposed to be the Deputy President. Your campaign team had said that she was backing you but she has just come out publically saying that she supports Mugabe?

Simba Makoni
Well I don't know who you understand that from, you should ask them not me. You did not hear that from me.

Debora Patta
So are your campaign team members out of odds with you?

Simba Makoni
I don't know what the campaign team members told you, that is why I am suggesting that you ask them because I did not tell you that.

Debora Patta
We are getting conflicting messages from your campaign team that is why I am asking you is there not . . . some conflict?

Simba Makoni
Well I don't know that because I don't know what the campaign team told you, until you expose to me who told you what it would be inappropriate for me to conjunct with you.

Debora Patta
So

Simba Makoni
I know what we stand for and I know what we are persuading the people of Zimbabwe to support. It's not rumor, it's not suspicion, it's not sowing seeds of mistrust amongst Zimbabweans. We are campaigning for the exact opposite of that, which is re-engagement, reconciliation, unity, genuine unity and faith and trust in each other. I know that none of my campaign colleagues would have given you the opposite.

Debora Patta
I think that the values that you aspire to are very noble, but at the moment it is just all promises, so the only way that we can judge you is on your past record. So I come back to the question, why did you or anybody else in the party not have the courage to kick Mugabe out, a long time ago?

Simba Makoni
Well you can make your judgment lady. This is a free world and I am hoping to make my country a freer country than it is at the moment. I did what I could at that time and under the circumstances that prevailed at that time and now I m doing what I can at his time under the circumstances that prevail now. And I think I want Zimbabweans to judge me by what I am - not by what others believe I should have been.

Debora Patta
My question is why did nobody kick Mugabe out as President of Zimbabwe and leader of ZANU PF a long time ago?

Simba Makoni
Who is nobody? I can't speak for nobody. I can only speak for Simba Makoni.

Debora Patta
So did you try to get Mugabe kicked out as President of ZANU PF?

Simba Makoni
I already told you, I strove within the party to promote change and renewal from within until that became difficult and I offered myself as an independent candidate. So the answer is yes, I tried to work for renewal and change from within the party.

Debora Patta
Robert Mugabe claims that western sanctions are causing Zimbabwe's woes, do you think that is a fair assessment?

Simba Makoni
In my announcement statement I said, and would like to repeat, the condition in which our country and our people find themselves in are a result of failure of our national leadership.

Debora Patta
South Africa is your neighbor. There has been a lot of work between the South African government and the Zimbabwean government in the past. What do you think of Thabo Mbeki's efforts to mediate some kind of solution through quiet diplomacy with Zimbabwe?

Simba Makoni
We have welcomed and supported the SADC initiative that placed President Mbeki as facilitator of the Zimbabwean national dialogue. We appreciate what has been achieved in that national dialogue through President Mbeki's facilitation. We expect to join that national dialogue after March 30 through the national authority that we will put in place.

Debora Patta
I know that you are convinced you will win Mr. Makoni but what if Robert Mugabe wins, what happens to Zimbabwe?

Simba Makoni
If he wins freely and fairly we will lend him our support but I know that he won't.

Debora Patta
And there we will have to leave it, thank you so much for joining us on 3rd Degree, thank you.

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