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Transcript of 'Hot Seat' interview with Jenni Williams, Chenjerai Hove and Stan Mukasa
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
June 12, 2007

http://swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat130607.htm

Violet Gonda: The discussion on the programme Hot Seat this week centres on the issue of talks and elections and whether or not there are alternatives to talks and elections. My guests on the programme are Jenni Williams, the co-ordinator of the pressure group Women of Zimbabwe Arise, Zimbabwean poet and writer Chenjerai Hove and Professor Stanford Mukasa, a political commentator. Welcome on the programme Hot Seat.

All: Thank you

Violet: I'm going to start with Jenni on the issue of the talks and also the elections that are scheduled for next year. What is the feeling on the ground on these two issues?

Jenni Williams: On the issue of an election, you know, as far as we're concerned as members of WOZA and MOZA, and, just as ordinary Zimbabweans, to have an election in a climate where you are starving, where 4000 people are dying every day, is totally irrelevant. And, right now I don't know whether anyone is even pre-occupied or thinking or even looking forward to the day of any election and even thinking they will leave their homes for that day. So an election and even the discourse about an election is pretty irrelevant. We are just looking at how to survive today. On the issue of talks we have a little bit of a slightly different reaction because the situation; the cost of living, everything is just tough and so people are just saying: "Today, how am I going to survive. Let me spend a little bit of today thinking about how we can put pressure to make this Mbeki initiative at least become something close to being genuine and, if don't do something like that, I know what will happen. It will be a repeat of the deals before, Lancaster House and others where politicians speak at a level that is totally irrelevant and then cut political deals in our name, and then we end up with nothing. So I have got to be able to have some voice, some recognition, some acknowledgement on that table if I might find that tomorrow will be a bit easier for me."

Violet: And you were arrested in Bulawayo last week together with 7 other women and just on Monday about 150 WOZA women were arrested after they handed themselves in at the Filabusi Police Station. Now, your group has been holding demonstrations, or trying to, for inclusion in these talks. Are any of these demonstrations having any impact on the talks?

Jenni Williams: Well, I don't know if we actually want to be included in the talks. I think our role is more to project what should be on the agenda of the talks, and that is more what we are pre-occupied with. We do not think that sitting right directly there will be time well spent because our role is a watchdog role. We need to be on the sidelines pushing an agenda on and then making sure that those discussions and the discourse and the issues that we want addressed are addressed in the talks. If they are not addressed we then are still free and have that arms length role to be able to keep insisting and keep pushing and keep on making sure our issues are being more genuinely discussed. So I think that is our role as WOZA. We recognise that role, all our members understand it very well and that's why we are able to mobilise them to keep active and to keep putting pressure.

Violet : And what should be on the agenda?

Jenni Williams : It should be dealing with the socio economic crisis. We have our ten steps that we have recommended and in each of those ten steps, if they are progressively done, we will be able to have a better climate and then we will be interested in talking about an election. Until we get those ten steps addressed and until we have a better climate, until all the unjust laws have been repealed and until we have done an audit of the civil servants and disbanded the Law and Order, we won't be able to have a climate where a truly free and fair election with one man/one woman one vote can be conducted and give us a now independent and fresh start for Zimbabweans.

Violet: The continued arrests and beatings of Opposition and rights defenders have left many to question the validity of the Mbeki led negotiations and also the participation of the MDC in the talks. Now, some ask how can we allow talks to take place while Mugabe is given free reign to put his violence and rigging machinery in place. What do you say to this?

Jenni Williams : Well, again, it's a matter of agenda and mandate. You know the MDC should actually be able to look at on what basis they will go into the talks and they should be able to envision and come up with the climate that they need for those talks to be conducted. If it's the freedom of all their members in custody, if it's a different environment, it's their agenda to press for that. We are not interested in pursuing their agenda or even a ZANU agenda. We are only interested in pursuing our agenda; that we need for what will be discussed when those talks take place. And, if Mbeki is to be a fair arbitrator and also a genuine mediator, he will also be pressing from his angle that those talks should be able to engage the issues that would make Zimbabwe liveable.

Violet : And, Mr Hove, what are your views on these talks?

Chenjerai Hove: I think the talks should be all-inclusive. By that I mean that it is no longer possible for political parties to deal with the situation in Zimbabwe . It is important that all interested parties should be included in these talks so that they don't seem to be pushing party political agendas. They have to be inclusive; everybody: WOZA, MDC, the constitutional movement, the youth, Lawyers for Human Rights, they must be included in these talks if they are going to be substantial talks.

Violet: But the Opposition has said that these other stakeholders would be included in these talks and this is just a preliminary stage.

Chenjerai Hove: Yes, yes, it's better to include everybody in the preliminary stage because you have to draft the agenda, you have to get all the items on the table which are coming from everybody and then you go on. Otherwise you can't take people or some other people on half way through the journey. So I think it's important that we realise that this is a national crisis which is political, social, economic and cultural. It must include everybody who has a stake in what we want to do for our country.

Violet: Now, some Zimbabweans say that this is déjà vu and that they have seen this happen with ZANU and ZAPU, so how can the MDC ensure that they don't suffer the same fate?

Chenjerai Hove: Yes, the MDC has to be cautious that's why I am talking about an all inclusive discussion table, because ZAPU went in as ZAPU and it was swallowed by ZANU PF. Now, if they went on as MDC, MDC now are going in as a minor partner in the discussion because ZANU will say 'Oh no, look, you don't have many seats in parliament, you are a minor partner, you don't have much negotiating power', which was the same with ZAPU. But if you include everybody else, the Churches, all the Women's' organisations, Men's organisations, Lawyers for Human Rights, Women for Human Rights, then the risk of being swallowed by ZANU PF and put on the ZANU PF train will be less; will be reduced.

Violet: And also, Mr Hove, what about the situation on the ground right now that is worsening, so while people are talking about talks, Mugabe is carrying on with what he's always done for seven years especially, you know beating up opponents, arresting opponents. Now, shouldn't that be a precondition to talks, you know to stop the violence, to stop the arrests?

Chenjerai Hove: The violence definitely has to stop. I think Mr Mbeki, if he wants to be seen as a serious negotiator; facilitator, he should make sure that he clearly tells President Mugabe that this has to stop. You can't negotiate while you are killing the other negotiating partners, you are torturing them, people are being disappeared and being people are being imprisoned. So that violence has to stop and that negotiation table must include a lot of basic changes. The laws which have been made to safeguard Mugabe's power; ZANU PF's power; must be on the table and those have to be removed. Electoral laws, POSA; all those laws just make it impossible to have no violence in the country. So, if those are put aside and negotiations are done on that basis; a genuine basis. Because, if you look at what happened to Ian Smith, for example, it was one South African President who said 'if you don't negotiate with the blacks in Zimbabwe, the consequences are going to be too ghastly to contemplate and this is exactly what Mbeki must tell Mugabe.

Violet: And now, Professor Mukasa, you know there are those who believe that Mugabe is using delaying tactics and that the MDC seems to be following his agenda and that it's becoming like a daily pilgrimage for the Opposition going to South Africa . Now, are there an alternative to talks and is the initiative becoming a waste of time?

Professor Mukasa : Yes, of course there are alternatives to talks but those alternatives are aimed at bringing pressure. Ultimately, any conflict is resolved at a conference table. The problem with the present talks is that Mugabe's agenda is likely to prevail simply because MDC does not have any bargaining power at all. You see, if you go to a conference table and you have nothing on your side to show that you are also strong, you are going to be swallowed up by the other person's agenda. Right now, I was talking to an MDC official the other day who said 'well, if you can suggest alternatives to participating in elections, let us know'. You see that's a tacit admission that we don't have any bargaining power because going to the conference table is tantamount to power politics. You know, people who sit and face each other across the table, each must have what I may call a stick, a power base which can make their demands credible and believable from the other person's perspective. When ZANU engaged in a dialogue with Ian Smith, it was against the background of each partner, each group, having a power base. Now, the power base for the MDC is obviously the civil society and what is needed now is to create that kind of environment that will make it clear; unequivocally clear; that he does not posses all the power. Mugabe, right now, is dependent on the military power he thinks he can wield at any time he wants to.

What MDC needs to do now is to link up with the rest of the civil society and make it clear to Mugabe that if he does not accede to the basic demands; demands like just social equities, you know, the basic necessities that Jenni talked about; the need to bring about free and fair elections, the need to bring back the Rule of Law, the need to bring back true democracy and the kinds of economic reforms that are needed to make Zimbabweans move forward and make Zimbabweans feel there is something for them in this post-colonial era. Unless MDC can marshal that power and strength; that power base, they are going as junior partners to the conference table with Mugabe. And, Mugabe can postpone the talks as much as he wants, and even if he were to come to the conference table, he is not likely to take those talks seriously because he has got so much confidence in this own power base.

And, one thing that must be recognised is that, the agenda for talks; according to Mugabe; is not to save Zimbabwe , but to save himself; to save himself from the kinds of prosecutions that could arise. Mugabe has lost interest in the welfare of the people of Zimbabwe , Mugabe has no vested interest in bringing back free and fair elections. He knows what's going to happen to him. Free and fair elections are going to be a death knell to him politically and in terms of his career and his party. And, he knows what lies ahead for him if the Rule of Law is ever to return to Zimbabwe . So, he has a power base, namely the military, and because he does not believe that the talks as envisaged by the MDC and Mbeki and the International Community will work to his interest. He is going to hold out. He has survived for seven years now and he feels he can hold out indefinitely. So, what is needed right now, I wouldn't talk about alternatives to talks, I would talk about developing a power base in order to become a real force at the talks or to force Mugabe to move away from his agenda of self survival to the agenda for the survival of the nation.

Violet: But how do they do that exactly because some say both the Opposition and the general civic society have failed to develop meaningful rhetoric free programmes which would deliver tangible immediate outcomes. So, what suggestions can you give?

Professor Mukasa: Well, then you have to start asking yourself

Jenni: If I can also come in here?

Violet : Yes

Jenni Williams: The one thing that we recognise, if MDC definitely thought they had to go to a table with bargaining power and a power base, they would have consulted civic society; they would have gone to the communities. They have not done that. So the first thing that needs to be done, is that anyone who calls themselves a civic or political leader needs to re-examine their agenda and ask themselves whether they are in it for the long haul or they are just in it for personal enrichment and positions and the glory. If they are please its time for them to please step aside. We need people who are going to understand they must be in this for reform and a real transitional process and not a quick fix. If we then have those kind of people then those people will be more inclined to go and develop a power base, to go and engage people, to genuinely meet with WOZA, to genuinely meet with other mass based movements and say, OK, how can we now unite, how can we come together, what memorandum of understanding can we come up with and then we will go forward. That is the kind of solution but with the current crop that you have I don't know if those people even have the intention to respect someone enough to ask them what is it and how can we work together to have a power base and give us more bargaining power and that is the grade zero of the whole problem

Violet: Now Jenni still on that issue about consultation. Now as I said earlier, your group has been embarking on these demonstrations, but have you had any response from the MDC?

Jenni Williams : No, we don't engage with them, they don't engage with us, which is actually a very sad thing that I have to admit and it's the truth and so I don't mind. But I can tell you that the other problem here that is coming and that is not actually seen, is we who are in the communities, we understand, we hear the heartbeat of the communities, ZANU have already begun their election campaigning two months ago. MDC mustn't be surprised if an earlier election is called so that basically ZANU will present Mbeki with a fait accompli and that will be that. Where are MDC? Pre-occupied talking about talks; amongst themselves and not in a consultative process to develop a power base. And so, do you see where this is going?

Violet : Now Mr Hove, can you give us your thoughts. We know that there is in-fighting in the MDC and many people say that this is the reason that Mugabe continues to stay in power because the Opposition forces are fighting amongst each other. And now, as Jenni has told us, even within the civic society people are not, you know, consulting or working as one. What can you say about this?

Chenjerai Hove: Yes, I think the problem, one of the big problems we have in the country, which we have had for some time, is the factionalism. Zimbabweans are specialists in creating factions out of every organisation and that fragmentation is costly. That fragmentation is going to disrupt the whole democratic programme. Why shouldn't people and organisations be talking to each other about this, and say 'OK, we want to get our act together, we go there together, we go there as a big power base to negotiate and we tell Thabo Mbeki that we have all these organisations, as what happened in South Africa, for example, the United Democratic Front which brought in the Churches, the different political movements, the Labour Unions, brought them together and they were a power base. They were very important for change in South Africa . Now we, in Zimbabwe , we tend to concentrate on very petty things and forget the bigger picture and that has cost us a lot at very crucial moments.

Violet: And what are your views on this Professor Mukasa? Because it seems Zimbabwe has become highly polarised and divided. How can these Opposition forces or rather pro-democracy be united? Or rather, is there a need for them to work together?

Professor Mukasa : Ok, two things first. One, some people have talked about the unity of Opposition forces into one anti Mugabe struggling mass. I don't necessarily subscribe to the physical unity. I think it's good for the Opposition forces to exist in their individual entities because those are the seeds for multi party democracy in future. What is needed is a common strategy. Let all the different parties in the civic society movement sort of be co-ordinated in their actions. So that when there is a ZCTU demonstration, let it not be a ZCTU demonstration, let it be a peoples' demonstration. When there is a WOZA demonstration, let it not be a WOZA demonstration, let it be a peoples' demonstration so that the fight for one becomes the fight for all. So, two strategies are needed here. One, and this is immediate and very important, is that the Broad Alliance which had been mooted some time in the past, it must be given an extra strength to co-ordinate the activities, so that when the ZCTU people are on strike everybody should participate. Just because the demonstration has been called by ZCTU, or by WOZA or MOZA it should not remain an exclusive activity of that particular agency. Everybody should join in. That's very very important.

And, when anybody is arrested, when anybody is victimised, whether it's in the ZCTU or the MDC or whatever, it should be a concern for all Zimbabweans. So it should be one fight for all. But, let the different entities exist in their own ideological enclave because that will give seeds. Those are the seeds for a multi party democracy once Mugabe is overthrown. If everybody was to unite under one party, you know, that will easily lend itself to the post Mugabe trend towards a one party type of political system.

The most important thing right now by way of developing a power base is that the Opposition movement must strategise. They must actually sit down and have a weekend seminar somewhere, it does not have to be in Zimbabwe, they can go to neighbouring Botswana, and sit down and say 'look here are some practical steps that we must take by way of developing a power base; a source of influence on Mugabe that will push Mugabe. Mugabe right now is dilly-dallying, Mugabe is taking his time, Mugabe is not serious about the talks because he knows the Opposition is so divided that they cannot come together to consolidate their strategies, they cannot co-ordinate their work. This is where the MDC needs to review their tactics.

In 1963 after the Sharpeville massacre, Nelson Mandela stood up and said 'look, we have tried all this non-violent and peaceful strategies and the time has come for us to ask ourselves very serious questions. Now, I'm not saying that the Opposition should engage itself in any violent activity, but they should from time to time be reviewing their strategies. One thing that amazes me and impresses me about WOZA is that they are very creative, innovative, they are always coming up with new strategies to beat Mugabe, and, they have been very successful. So let us learn from each other, you know, where ZCTU is looking at why their efforts have not been that successful, they should also learn from how the other groups has been successful.

Violet: But Professor Mukasa, why do you think these other groups have not picked up on those strategies that you've talked about?

Professor Mukasa : That is the question that is the challenge now for these other groups. They should not be so stuck on saying like; I think it was Welshman Ncube who said it one time who said 'look we have no alternative but just to go on with the elections' you know, agitating - when he was defending his decision to go to participate in the Senate elections. Now, that's a defeatist attitude you know. The history of revolutions, if you are to study the history of revolutions, they never started successfully. The very first Chinhoyi battle that was waged by ZANU PF, all the members at Chinhoyi, they were all wiped out but they did not sit back and say 'well we tried it and we failed'. Some of the most successful revolutions had very poor starts - the regimes were so effective in wiping them out but they didn't sit back and say well we have tried the best thing is to talk to them. No.

Violet : Professor Mukasa, before you carry on and before I go to Jenni and Mr Hove, on the issue of elections that you have just talked about, what else can people do besides going to the elections?

Professor Mukasa: Well, what people need to do is to agitate for their rights. The elections are, in the present environment, the elections are not going to give people what they want. I mean since 2000 every single election has been rigged and we know it. You can be as sure as the sun comes from the east and sets in the west that the next elections are going to be rigged as well. So its foolishness just to keep on doing the same things and hoping you'll get results. I think the strategy now is to develop what I call a power base to be able to make it clear to Mugabe that if you don't accede to our demands we are prepared to go to the streets.

Some people have given up on mass action, I have not. And, I believe that the Zimbabweans will arise, and that they are able and that they are willing. And, in fact, if rumours are true, Mugabe's Security Chiefs have reportedly told him that the people are now ready and willing to overthrow him through mass action. Whether that is true or not we don't know, but the fact of the matter is that what is needed now is that kind of leadership that will mobilise the people; not the leadership that will just sit by the rivers of Babylon and just moan their failures and weep. But, we need leadership that are creative, that are very innovative, that are always constantly reviewing their strategies. If something did not go well in the past we have to sit down and ask 'why did it not go well'. I believe right now that the people of Zimbabwe are ready and willing and able to be mobilised into real demonstrations. I mean WOZA is a model, is a text book case that shows that people are ready and willing. What we need now is the kind of resolute leadership that will take that extra step and say 'look we have to show Mugabe by demonstrations, by what I call a civil disobedience campaign. It doesn't necessarily involve mobilising thousands of people onto the streets but there are many, many strategies that can be engaged in and that is what Mugabe is fearful of. He's afraid that there will come a day when the Opposition movement will have that kind of a leader who will mobilise people into a systematic and purposeful civil disobedience campaign.

Violet: Let me ask Jenni about this. Why isn't this happening? You are on the ground and you mentioned the problems of the leadership, what really is the problem?

Why aren't these organisations, including your organisation, why aren't you all working together? Professor Mukasa talked about the MDC Opposition detainees that were in custody, and some of them spent more than 65 days in police custody and there were no demonstrations from any of the other organisations demanding their release. The WOZA women are always getting beaten or brutalised or arrested and we don't hear other organisations issuing statements condemning the arrests. Why is it like that?

Jenni Williams: It's the fear of the baton stick, the baton stick syndrome, and I know it because I am actually amongst people and people fear very much when that riot policeman gets off his vehicle wearing his chamber pot helmet and he lifts his baton stick people fear that very much. And we do a lot of training to ask people to overcome fear and we recognise that we still now have to take another step in our training programme, in our curriculum development to try and find a way to train people to overcome the fear of that baton stick. That is number one, for us as WOZA.

But with other organisations and other political parties, they fear that time in custody. They don't want to be in the dirt, they don't want to have lice in their hair like I've currently got, and they fear all those sorts of things. But sometimes the things that you most fear are the things that you need to do if you want to be free, and we need to come to that stage where we realise that. But then, the other thing that also comes into play, and it needs a lot more discussion; it needs analysis examination is this issue of non-violence.

With us; as a non violent organisation; we are developing a worry, a concern when we are called by other organisations to join them in the streets and it is primarily because of our commitment to non violence. WOZA people are trained, we 100% endorse non-violence as the way that we are going to remove this violent regime. But, other organisations have not developed that commitment, have not developed that ability to be as brave to say, in response to your violence, I will sit down, in response to your violence I will hand myself in, in solidarity. They haven't got that and so it makes us very reluctant to join in with people who might respond violently and destroy a reputation that we have actually suffered five years to build.

There needs to be an understanding that non-violence is not your response to violence. It's a sustained campaign of strengthening the psyche of a people who want to be more dignified. And if people start to recognise that and commit to non violence; I have been with Morgan Tsvangirai and I've asked him 'can you commit to non-violence' and I've not gotten a clear answer. I've seen NCA demos do they commit to non-violence? No, we don't see that. ZCTU maybe they commit to non violence but there's no sustained training and curriculum development that allows someone to say 'I am a non violent human rights defender and because of that, under the United Nations as long as I maintain non violence and universality, I have that protection. And that will act like a shield to protect people so that they don't fear the baton stick as much.

Violet Gonda: And I'm going to pause here for this week but join us next Tuesday for the last part of this discussion with Professor Stanford Mukasa, Jenni Williams and Chenjerai Hove.

Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa 's Hot Seat programme (12 June 07). Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

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