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Hot Seat interview with Raymond Majongwe
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
February 20, 2009

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat230209.htm

Violet Gonda: Raymond Majongwe, the General Secretary of the Progressive Teachers' Union of Zimbabwe is my guest on the programme Hot Seat. Now teachers have come under fire for refusing to return to work and for demanding salary hikes pegged at 2 300 US dollars. Raymond, what is your basis of demanding 2 300 US dollars a month?

Raymond Majongwe: We are not asking for $2 300 from nowhere. We have done a thorough scientific analysis of the situation obtaining in Zimbabwe . It's quite clear that it's only in Zimbabwe that the rand and the US dollar have been humbled by inflation and it's clear for everybody to see that what 1 000 American dollars can buy in America, you need 3 000 in Zimbabwe. What 1 000 rand can buy in South Africa you need 3 to 4 000 in Zimbabwe. We are very clear about that. And we did a clear scientific analysis of the situation obtaining in the country.

We also did a comparative analysis of what civil servants in the region are earning. I think the lowest paid civil servants in the world are found in Zimbabwe and the lowest paid teachers in the whole world are found in Zimbabwe . As of January 2009 teachers were paid Z$31 trillion. Z$31 trillion at that time was translating to exactly 2 rand. How would anybody expect a man or a woman with a family with rentals and health to take care of, to be paid 2 rand and be expected to be a patriotic citizen? I think it would be naive for any person to simply say we must keep quiet when we are being oppressed right in our eyes.

Gonda: What does it cost to have one student in a classroom these days?

Majongwe: Apparently the situation is now very different. I would be lying if I would tell you anything because the situation that obtains is that we now have so many different schools. In the past it would have been very easy for somebody to say that this is the amount that government or somebody should spend on education, but we have gotten to a point where we are very poor people and we have very rich people. These people live in one corner of the country and the other in the other corner. One being going to a private school with everything that you can imagine and one who is going to a school in Gokwe where there is not even a building to talk about, and that is exactly the dilemma that one has - if one is going to try to put a monetary values to any of these processes. Because as far as we are concerned the government would stand up and put a figure but we are simply saying these are conservative figures, we really need to go back to basics and factor in everything because it is going to be very difficult for anybody to come up and say anything now because nobody knows anything. There is no school that is functioning especially in the government set up so it's very difficult for anybody to come up with a figure and say so much.

Gonda: The government says it has no money and it has offered to give teachers and other civil servants 100 US dollars a month. Now there are other people who would say you are being paid from tax money and there is no return. In other words you are not producing something that is sold at the end of the month - that is an investment with no return until that student you are teaching actually graduates. So how realistic is your demand given that there is no immediate return?

Majongwe: (chuckles) We are not making these demands from the blue. I would tell you because we have a reason why we are saying this. Teachers in 1980, when Mugabe took over government, could afford to buy a house, could afford to buy a car, could afford to go on holiday, could send all their siblings' children to school and I will tell you for instance about me. Eight children were born to my mother and my father; all of us went to boarding schools, my father was just a mere headmaster, my mother just a mere teacher. We were able to go to school, real schools where we went to proper boarding schools. All of the eight siblings of mine but now one teacher cannot even send their only one child to pre-school.

This is the situation where we are at and I think we must make it very clear without any ambiguity that the government ran-down the institution of education, deliberately disarticulated us, took us off our feet, labelled us enemies of the State and made us paupers. And we are saying as citizens we deserve better. We are also taxpayers. It's not like we are supposed to be paying tax, we are supposed to be getting money that others are paying tax for. We are also taxpayers. We work, we are employees of the government. Many a time people forget that.

The intellect that they exude wherever they are going to be moving around it is a product of our sweat. When Mugabe goes out to the UN and everywhere saying he leads a country with the highest literacy rate he is basically referring to what we have done as teachers and people want to suddenly say, you don't manufacture anything. All these doctors you see, all these people, the brain drain we are talking about, those are our direct products. It is a silent production but indeed we have produced people with functional literacy and we must be rewarded for it.

Gonda: But Raymond, I still go back to the same question, how realistic are your demands given the current political and economic situation? In fact if I may add to that, if we are to compare what is happening in the private school - and you can correct me if I'm wrong - teachers in private schools are on a pay scale supported by revenues that actually support the schools such as levies, and so parents with kids in private schools are actually paying for their children to be taught. Is it not the case that to some extent right now, the only way for you to actually get such payments is if Zimbabweans can pay a higher income tax or property tax - but then on the other hand, given the current situation don't you think your demands cannot be in isolation of some of these external factors?

Majongwe: Yes we have a very scientific reason as to why we are saying what we are saying. Teachers in Zimbabwe are not paid in isolation. You look at what is happening in South Africa, there are private schools in South Africa, there are private schools in Zambia and the teachers there are well paid. You look at government institutions in Mozambique, in Namibia and Botswana, South Africa and Lesotho, teachers are being paid an average of not less than nine thousand rand, in the region. And can you honestly stand up and say because we are in Zimbabwe, we have an economy that is on its knees, therefore we cannot ask for so much?

I think that the fact that the government had the audacity to pay us 2rands, yet we see lavish spending and extravagant spending by government aided by the irresponsible Reserve Bank governor, we have a legitimate reason to stand up and say we should not accept anything less than what we are asking for. We see a lot of lavish expenditure, even now Mugabe is about to commemorate his birthday and there is a lot of lavish spending there. You cannot expect us therefore to say we must stomach and pretend that we don't see all this expenditure. We must stand up and say while are we having all these challenges, we also need to survive, we have families to look after, we have children to send to school. We know for a fact that we were being told that the diamonds being mined at Chiadzwa - and the Reserve Bank governor was on national television saying the country was being haemorrhaged out of 1.7billion US dollars a month. And the government took over those mines. What is happening to the money that is coming from there? We know that we don't have a manufacturing industry that is working, but who are the culprits? It is the same government who took over the companies that they can't even run.

So we are simply saying we are asking what we are worth. We know that as citizens and as teachers we also pay tax, we also want to be paid meaningful salaries and pay the tax and be citizens. We can't honestly not stand up and say we're citizens and ultimately exist in a welfare situation where we survive on charity, no!

In 1980 to 1988, teachers were able to survive. In 1988 to 1996 teachers were almost living normal lives, they could send their children to school, they could afford holidays, they could afford cars, they could afford, but after 1999, things went from bad to worse. Teachers were labelled enemies of the State, we were being punished! Salaries stopped coming, they became meaningless and so we are simply saying we want to be paid.

Even those you are talking about in the private schools, they are actually being underpaid because a lot of these private schools are making a killing! A lot of these private schools that are run by politicians and the churches are exploiting people and that must come to an end because we must start dictating the pace as the workers. Even though it is correct that teachers, the world over are not the best paid of workers but we are simply saying because we know that we are citizens and we observe all these things that are on the table, we must also be enjoying from the same cake that everybody else is enjoying.

Gonda: And you are saying that your compatriots in the Diaspora earn so much and you want that but is the comparison realistic given the gradual slide of the Zimbabwean education system?

Majongwe: It is. Teachers in Zimbabwe are as good as teachers anywhere else in the world. In fact every other school in South Africa has a Zimbabwean teacher. Every other school in Namibia, name it in the region, because of the quality of the teachers that are coming from here. And none the less, we are simply saying as teachers in Zimbabwe , we must be paid so that we don't go to those areas. We are patriotic citizens; we want to work in our country, just like the doctors, just like the nurses, just like the engineers.

I think it is incumbent upon this new government to make sure that they correct this anomaly once and for all where the teachers in Zimbabwe earn competitive salaries. And that is the only way we then can be able to keep our education standard at the apex where it has always been. And I think that if anybody wants to challenge me on this one I will put my head on the block. Zimbabwean teachers are the best, they are the best trained and we want to deliver. This is why you are honestly going to find out that, talk to any person from any university in South Africa , they will tell you that when they have students from Zimbabwe , they know that that year they will have quality education because we are talking of people who have been groomed very well from the background upwards. Now when we got to a stage where we are now, where even the people who are in our universities, in our teachers' colleges are just the riff-raff, people who are coming from anywhere, then we are sacrificing the same education that we want to talk about.

Gonda: But right now children are also suffering because they're not being taught and don't you think by refusing to go to work and refusing this starter pack of 100 US dollars, this will actually shut down the education system and won't this contribute to undermining democracy?

Majongwe: The question we ask - are we in a normal environment? I think the answer is no. Are teachers earning good salaries? We say no. Do teachers have to lead normal lives? We say yes. How do they lead these normal lives? They must get food, they must dress properly, and they must be able to stay in a proper housing. And how else is that going to be done - if they put their head on the block and say we must be paid reasonable and meaningful salaries. Then that can happen. We were in a war situation.

Apparently the other challenge that we actually observe, the government and the (former) Minister Chigwedere and his Permanent Secretary Dr Mahere were not engaging people, we obviously were not meeting them unlike the situation where the first day that the Prime Minister took office, we got a call to meet the Prime Minister. Two days down the line we were able to meet the Minister and we think that if David Coltart the current Minister of Education had been with the Ministry a long time ago, the Ministry would not be where it is today. We are talking of somebody who is accommodative, somebody who will listen to what you are saying and somebody who will acknowledge that they have made mistakes. Not the character of Chigwedere who knows that when they were doing, when they were at their best in terms of destruction they still told the world that our education was at the top. When they were destroying and lacerating ZIMSEC into pieces they just said everything was normal. Now the results are not yet out from way back as June 2008 - they still want to continue and say everything is normal. People who want to stand up and say schools in Zimbabwe are open when we know they are not.

Once the process of dialoguing and consultation becomes the key principal we are likely to go to Canaan. I think that the fact that we have been engaged, we have been convinced that the government that took over power under Morgan Tsvangirai took empty coffers. We are now appreciating and on Monday morning at 9 o'clock we are going to make a press statement to the country. We are calling all teachers to go back to their work stations and we are simply saying the term must now start in earnest because we are saying Zimbabwe is our country. These children you talk about are our children, they are our sisters, our hearts bleed when we see them being thrown into the abyss of abject poverty because of selfish politicians of the nature of Chigwedere and company.

I think time has come for us to go forward to engage one another and have the process of dialogue. But we must also make it very clear that we are going back with a heavy heart because we want to salvage something for these kids and for our country. And we will go back to the trenches once that situation is not addressed to our satisfaction.

I must also be very clear here some of our teachers shot us in the foot. They are the ones who went back to teach in these schools and were being paid 10 US dollars. So the government is now saying if your members went back to be paid 10 dollars why are you refusing to come back because we are now paying you 100 US dollars? I think we must also make sure that we don't exonerate our members from such irresponsible trade union behaviour but nonetheless they are our members, we'll take them on board and we'll try and make sure that we address the situation once and for all.

For the record we are saying there are other demands that the Ministry under David Coltart has promised that they'll look into and we are quite happy with the way David Coltart has handled our presentations to him so far.

Gonda: This is a sudden u-turn. So now you are going back to work - and is it because of your meeting with the new Education Minister David Coltart?

Majongwe: It's not just because of the meeting, it's because of the meeting that we have had with the Prime Minister, a meeting we had with the Minister and we have also been consulting our membership, we have also been consulting other stakeholders because we also want public opinion on our side, we want to move with the people. I think we have made our point. I think the lesson that every revolutionary has been taught - when you score and declare victories don't push them too far because ultimately you then lose relevance. We have made our point and we are simply saying to the new government we are watching and watching closely. We want them to look at the issues around the way the Ministry is governed, the teachers' conditions of service, political violence and many other issues around even the inclusion of the Progressive Teachers' Union of Zimbabwe as a relevant stakeholder - because you will know and you will understand that under the Zanu-PF regime, PTUZ was not invited at all these government education ministry meetings. It was only ZIMTA who were attending and we honestly believe that it's actually going to be better for us because we will then be able to communicate our message and be able to be understood and to be heard.

I think once that is done, that will then give us a road on which to trod on, considering that we are citizens of this country, we want things to work, we want normalcy to return, we want donors to come back and we are simply saying we must give the parents of these children value for money in terms of what we will be delivering in our schools.

Gonda: So what did Mr Tsvangirai and Mr Coltart say on the issues of your demands and what reforms did they say they're willing to adopt to ensure the success of the education system?

Majongwe: I might not be able to give you these because it will be very unfair but I will basically say that the demands that we are making are such that those teachers who left and went away for a coterie of reasons, they must come back into the profession, no questions asked. The people who basically lost property and a lot of other things must also be in line for compensation. We are also saying as a trade union we want to see certain things that are going to be positive, the issues around housing as retention packages. Teachers must come back and they must be at least be assured that they will be able to get a stand, because the major reason why teachers were working in Zimbabwe since 1980 is not that we were getting the best of salaries but there was just this reassurance that things would happen. One day you could own a house, one day you could own a car and all that hope has been lost.

This is why we are saying we must go back, restore the confidence, make sure every other citizen feels part and parcel of the process, then we will move forward together, but nonetheless, we are very clear and we will be very wary, we will be watching and looking and monitoring the progress closely. We are not just going to give these guys an open cheque - like what we did with many others, of these destructive Ministers who worked this Ministry.

We want to be involved at every other right and left turn that the Ministry is going to take. We want to know who is being appointed in the Ministry, where and why, what are their qualifications. We want to see a clear de-politicisation of the Ministry in terms of the head office, in terms of the provinces as well as headmasters. We have scenarios where a lot of these headmasters who are in our schools are mere political appointees. People who are being appointed to be EOs (Education Officers) with the agenda of doing nothing besides to politically silence the progressive voices in our schools - and I think time has come for us to say let us bury the hatchet and let the best people take over leadership and this country will go back to where it has always been.

Gonda: How many teachers are actually left in Zimbabwe right now and is it known how many left this country?

Majongwe: This is one other reason why we are simply saying schools must open again. We now don't know how many teachers we have - so we are simply saying for progress sake let every person go to where they should be. We do a head count and we see how many teachers we need. For the record I'll tell you that according to the Ministry's statistics they are saying we have 80 000 teachers left in the country. At PTUZ we maintain that there are 70 000 teachers and of the 70 000, 40 000 teachers are non-qualified teachers. These are people who have been brought in as relief teachers, some of them as spies, and some of them just as gap fillers. And we are simply saying it is quite sad we are talking of having 115 000 teachers in 2005, 2006 and we have gone down to 80 000, which I think is a government conservative figure because we are convinced the country has the capacity to produce 5 to 6 000 teachers a year and it is going to take us 6 to 7 years to ultimately go to our optimum - that is if these teachers who are in the region are not going to come back.

But I am confident because we are having a lot of people who are asking and they are making enquiries and they want to come back. Just like our organisation called PTUZ-South Africa they are also making enquiries and we are making an effort to submit their letter and their concerns of teachers in South Africa to the Minister on Monday at 9 o'clock when we meet him.

But I think the bottom line has to be made, that teachers want to come back but it will be three, four, five years before we get to our optimum number that we want and ultimately be able to get the glamour we have always had. Because we are talking of schools that don't have teachers, that don't have desks, that don't have window panes, that don't have doors. The doors were being taken off the walls by the war veterans, they were making coffins out of them, they were taking window panes and taking them to their houses and they were burning desks.

It is quite sad and my heart bleeds when I look back to say why did this destruction happen? Because somebody or the Minister of Education Chigwedere did not have the guts to stand up to the people who were moving around destroying our schools wantonly and in a barbaric manner what happened in the years from 2002.

Gonda: So does this mean that when you say you are going back you're actually accepting the 100 US dollars that is being offered or you've been offered more since your meeting with Mr Coltart and Mr Tsvangirai?

Majongwe: The reason why we are saying we are going back is we want to get to the basics first, we want to know how many teachers we have, because if we are going to get any assistance from anybody they will ask you how many teachers we have, how many teachers do you have and what are we going to say? We don't know because even at the Ministry level there are a lot of ghost teachers that are being paid through the Ministry and I think we must stop that because we have reason to believe that there are people down the line who are basically lining their pockets.

Gonda: Are you going to be offered more than the 100 US dollars or are you going to take what is being offered right now?

Majongwe: We are going to take what has been offered now but that doesn't stop us from demanding more. For the record, the government has been telling us that they are going to be paying us the US dollar component and another Zimbabwean dollar component which is meaningless because the newspaper, the Financial Gazette costs Z$1 000 dollars re-valued but the money that were put into teachers' accounts is 600 dollars. So these are some of the things that we are obviously saying we don't accept. But we are just giving them the benefit of doubt. We have a new Finance Minister, we have a new Prime Minister, we have a new Minister of Education, we want to give them the chance and basically help them fill up their coffers before some of the money starts trickling to the teachers and other civil servants. We have the right to build Zimbabwe together again.

Gonda: So will teachers become more accountable and accept performance standards if awarded higher salaries?

Majongwe: I think any normal person will concede that reality. A lot of the teachers have not been working for a long time, we need a few months to adjust, but let me assure you, we have the best in terms of our teachers and we will produce and deliver. And we want to assure all the parents and all the school children that once the term starts at a date that we will announce on Monday we are going to give our best shot and we want to just say education will return to normalcy and we are going to provide quality education to our children.

Gonda: Was your main concern the removal of Zanu-PF or better work conditions or both and also what is your position now that Mugabe is still in power?

Majongwe: Apparently I must state categorically clear that I'd always maintained that it was going to be very difficult to remove Mugabe from power completely and even if he goes, he's going to leave a lot of remnants in terms of people who will be Mugabe-like. But the bottom line is with one foot on the pitch it is also good because the progressive democratic forces of Zimbabwe will now be involved in everything. It is unfortunate that it might take time but having stomached Mugabe for 28 years why can't we then be ready to work with him for a few years? One thing that is very clear is Mugabe is 85 tomorrow and why would we then doubt that the man is no longer at his best, the man is finished, the man is not as dynamic and as charismatic as he was and we are simply saying if the MDC is clear about what they want to achieve they will get it anyway because if the Zimbabweans were able to wait for 28 years, why can't they wait for 28 months, why can't they wait for 28 days, for 28 hours, 26 minutes, 26 seconds. We will be able to get to a point where Mugabe will leave and he will leave very soon.

Gonda: You were being perceived as being treacherous, now is it one of the reasons why you have decided to go back to work because of the outcry?

Majongwe: No apparently not. No we are simply saying we have fought and we have won. We wanted a new Minister, some of the things that we wanted have happened. We wanted a new Minister of Education, we wanted a new thinking at the top of government, we wanted new concessions and all these are being given so we are simply saying the strike was never going to go to perpetuity. The strike was going to end at one point. And the good thing is basically that teachers who earned 2 rand in January and they are getting an opportunity to earn 1 000 rand this month, so we are simply saying we have at least moved, we don't agree with what they have been paid but we are saying let's move on.

We can't continue fighting otherwise we become irrelevant. We also are taking serious consideration of what our members are saying. Our members are saying we have fought, we have won, let's put this victory in our bag and we look for another victory. We'll be going back to the trenches. If this new government is not going to take serious our consideration, we will go back to the trenches in March. There's no problem, we still have our arsenal, we still have our people, we still have our generals and we still have our high command. We are ready to go back to the trenches as and when the situation obtains for us to go to the bush.

Gonda: Thank you very much Raymond Majongwe.

Majongwe: Thank you.

Feedback can be sent to violet@swradioafrica.com

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