Chikane: I'm not sure what he is talking about unless he is admitting, which is a contradiction in terms, that he did give me a fraudulently obtained document which for legal reasons I had to submit it to the authorities because if I had not done that I would have become an accessory to this criminal act. But I have avoided even confirming that I did receive this document because in his statement, I think even given to the courts of Zimbabwe, he has denied that he has given me any document, so he seems to be contradicting himself because he says one thing to the court and he says something to the media which is going to make his case very difficult to defend.

Gonda: He actually denied giving you the document - and I presume the document that you are talking about is the one that was compiled by the security forces on the situation in Chiadzwa. Now Mr Maguwu said you were the one who actually showed him the document during your discussions and you said that you had received it from ZANU-PF sources and that obviously in the meeting you did discuss some confidential issues to do with the CRD's findings in Chiadzwa.

Chikane: That is why I'm saying if I were him I wouldn't be saying all these things because they are going to be used against him in court apart from whether or not I would have given the authorities this document that I am referring to which is true and I didn't want to say that publicly because I'm interested in his case. But over and above that, there are other sources of information including his laptop that was confiscated that can prove to that effect but I'm just saying it's not really in his interest to be talking to the media when he's facing a legal case. I would advise him not to do that. I don't think it's a good idea for him, not for me - it's got nothing to do with me, it's got nothing to do with the Kimberley Process, I'm just worried about the manner in which he is handling this matter because he is actually making his situation very difficult.

Gonda: So what is it that you handed to the authorities and why did you feel that it was necessary for you to pass on this information?

Chikane: You know I think it's because I live in a normal world and I don't do stolen goods, whether they are in the form of a document or clothes or anything and if someone tells me he has stolen a document from the Joint Operations Command (JOC) of any country, imagine if that happened to the United States, or in Israel, or in Russia, you know what the implications are. And for him to present me with a document that was stolen from the Joint Operations Command, I didn't think that my job includes among other things dealing with fraudulently obtained information. If he needed to share any information he would have done so without handing me, handing over a document that he had stolen. In fact for a minute I didn't even trust him because I thought he operates in a very unscrupulous manner - but in retrospect obviously it does look like that's how documents are obtained by people that are fighting in these kind of situations such as Zimbabwe, but I don't live in that world so I cannot relate to handling any fraudulent material of any sort.

Gonda: But how does one check authenticity in a country like Zimbabwe where those under suspicion of wrongdoing include elements of the security agents? Could you not have gone to the KP for example? Could you not have at least gone to the people who had given you the mandate to go on a fact-finding mission in Zimbabwe ? Could you not have gone to them instead of going to the people who are implicated in that document?

Chikane: Ma'am, this is not a domestic matter or a night club matter, it's a serious matter, you go to prison for 25 years in Zimbabwe if you are found in possession of a document of that nature. Having said that, I have actually incorporated this matter in my report which means I have informed the Kimberley Process, but at that particular moment there was no Kimberley Process to be thinking about, I was more concerned about periods of more than 25 years in prison in Zimbabwe if in possession of a fraudulently obtained document.

I think the whole matter should be seen from the perspective that I was in possession of a stolen material and I did not want to be in possession of a stolen material. And secondly, it took me four days to assess and analyse the document and even went to the extent of establishing if there is an author of that document that I could meet. I even met the author of the document so I was able to confirm that it is an authentic document, but you see at the end of the day, the issue for me is actually more about the fact that, you know when people are involved in intelligence operations, I think they should go to those schools so they understand how these things are dealt with. You don't walk around with a stolen document when you know that you are being followed, when you know that you are fighting with the regime but you walk around with a laptop that has got all those documents. I mean I don't want to go to that extent but I'm just saying the manner in which he handled this sensitive matter was very unprofessional, very dangerous and at least I didn't want to be associated with it in any way.

Gonda: But how would you have known that the authorities would have found out that you and Mr Maguwu discussed this document and also are you aware that there have been allegations of torture, human rights violations against the same institutions to which you gave the documents to?

Chikane: Well first of all, let's not mix the manner in which the document was presented to me and the manner in which I presented it to the authorities, let's separate that from subsequent actions because I think I have already expressed my feelings about it, that I really wished the Zimbabwean government could treat him well in accordance with their laws. And having said that, I'm coming back to the fact that, it took me some time to determine what to do next, but it also strikes me that when I thought I was meeting an official of an NGO, I was actually meeting an intelligence operator and I did not want to be part and parcel of any intelligence operation. This is the point I'm trying to make. I had no interest, it was not part of my mandate to be involved any intelligence operation in Zimbabwe.

Gonda: What was the reason for you meeting Mr Maguwu if it wasn't to find out his investigations in the Marange area?

Chikane: No had I known that he was involved in an intelligence operation I wouldn't have met him. I was looking at meeting someone who represented an NGO which is concerned about human rights issues but not about intelligence operations. I just didn't want to be associated with him and neither do I want to do that now and not in the future. I've had no interest in the intelligence world. My job requires me to monitor what is happening in Zimbabwe . The manner in which you obtain information should have nothing to do with me, he should have just come to me and said so many people were tortured, so many people were relocated, so many people have been involved in this activity or the other and especially if it is written by you it's even better. What made it worse is that when I asked him if I could quote him he said he doesn't want to be associated with that document. Now this is a very complicated matter, it's like someone bringing a complaint to you but he says don't quote me, now who then is to be quoted? Who is the source of the information? So I end up being the source of that information and if there's one thing I was trying to avoid was to deal with the document that the owner did not want to own it and he did not want to be associated with it and I had to keep it in my bag.

Now I have to say one last thing because as I said I am working on something else, the one other thing that I need to say which is equally very important, is that I think it has to be understood that I was more interested in the activities of NGOs because of the association Mr Maguwu has with that global NGO and they had given me a particular report about the situation there and I was more than happy to verify what had been presented to me, whether verbally or otherwise and that had nothing to do with intelligence information. It was a straightforward human rights concern by NGOs within the Kimberley Process, and remember that NGOs are members, I mean observers within the Kimberley Process. So I had an idea I would meet them and I had declared this to everybody, the whole world knew that I was going to meet them in the same manner that I was going to meet representatives of the industry and representatives of government, and I was not looking forward to any intelligence operation, neither did I expect them to have anything of any intelligence nature with the government.

The one thing that lastly I should say is that I have always known that if I were to be in Zimbabwe, I wouldn't be surprised that someone would want to know what's happening at the hotel where I am, in my bag, in my suitcase and every movement, who I communicate with on my phone and so on, I've always known that and for me to be given a document that has to go into my bag, I knew that someone was going to find it. And had it been found in my briefcase - exactly the same way that my other emails were found in my suitcase, can you imagine what that would have meant to the Zimbabwean government and to me in particular?

Gonda: So Mr Chikane . . .

Chikane: I did not want to be associated with anything of an intelligence nature.

Gonda: So how do you feel though now that you have found out that one of your informers, Mr Maguwu, was arrested soon after you met with him and that his family members were beaten up and arrested as a result of your meeting with him?

Chikane: Well I've already expressed my views about that but I do want to separate what he is going through now and the fact that what he did to me was equally very wrong and very illegal.

Gonda: But do you understand the problems that you have now created by sending out this information to the police because your mandate requires cooperation of more than just government but also of local communities including human rights organisations, so if you go around handing over documents no matter how confidential or sensitive they are, who will give you anything if your real job is to find out what is really going on in Zimbabwe?

Chikane: I have done this job for almost ten years and one lesson that has to be learned is that the KP monitor does not deal with stolen material. It is as simple as all that. I think this is a lesson that anybody, whether it's in NGOs, industry or government, the KP monitor does not deal with fraudulent material. Stolen material, I don't deal with stolen material. I think that is one lesson that not only Mr Maguwu, anyone else who has to submit any information to me, any documentation to me, it should not be a stolen document. There are many options of using a stolen document, you rephrase, you rewrite, you put it in your own words, you find other ways of presenting such information, you don't present to me the original document that has been stolen from the Joint Operation Command of the police force. You don't do that and that's one lesson that anyone who deals with me will have to know.

Gonda: I spoke to Maguwu's lawyers who said that they were surprised to see that while their client was initially arrested for the recent communications about the controversial Chiadzwa diamonds with you, that these details were not actually placed before the courts, so if Mr Maguwu violated the Official Secrets Act, which is the reason why you felt that you had to notify the authorities about that, why wasn't he charged with that offence?

Chikane: I don't know Ma'am, I'm not a Zimbabwean court, I'm not Mr Maguwu, I'm not Mr Maguwu's lawyer. I'm accounting for an incident that happened between me and Mr Maguwu and I wouldn't like to extend this discussion beyond just that incident which took place in less than 30 minutes.

Gonda: This was the second time that you went to Zimbabwe and I understand that you have released a report about the situation in the Chiadzwa area, what were your findings?

Chikane: I think Ma'am, you are a professional journalist, you and I have an agreement that I'm not going to talk about that report and I'm surprised you are raising it in public.

Gonda: No the reason I am raising it now is because I have seen the interview that you did with the State controlled Herald newspaper, so if you can talk to the State controlled Herald newspaper about your findings, why can you not talk to us?

Chikane: No I've not spoken to the Herald. I don't know where they've got information from. I'm told that my report is in the market, I'm surprised that you still don't have it but it has not been circulated officially. From a corporate government point of view, I report to the Working Group on Monitoring. They are only meeting on Monday to study the report and they'll give me a feedback and then they will release it to the public.

Gonda: Can you at least tell us the minimum conditions required by the Kimberley Process to certify diamonds in Zimbabwe because many people would want to know it?

Chikane: Ma'am . . .

Gonda: This is not to do with what your report is saying but what you'd require from Zimbabwe so that people can at least know what it is that you would want to see. Is that unreasonable?

Chikane: Violet you are being naughty Ma'am, please don't do that. I've already offered you a one-on-one and please don't do that, it's not correct.

Gonda: OK . . . I'll call you next week then. Thank you very much.

Chikane: It's a pleasure.

Gonda: In Chikane's leaked internal report to the Kimberly Process, the South African monitor says Zimbabwe has met the minimum requirements to legally trade in diamonds and recommends the resumption of exports from the controversial Chiadzwa diamond fields. Mr. Chikane declined to comment about these recommendations until the Kimberley Process Working Group on Monitoring has met to discuss his report. So I spoke with Bernard Taylor, the Executive Director of Partnership Africa Canada, one of the organisations in the Kimberley Process monitoring group - and asked him to provide an insight into the work of the KP and the implications of Chikane's decision not to maintain the confidentiality of his meeting with Farai Maguwu. I started by asking Mr Taylor to explain how his organisation is associated with the KP.

Bernard Tayor: My organisation Partnership Africa Canada which is a Canadian NGO began work on the issue of natural resources and conflict more than ten years ago by looking into the war in Sierra Leone and we published a report in the year 2000 on the Sierra Leone diamond trade and how it was fuelling the war there and as a result of that report in 2000, we were invited by the government of South Africa and others to take part in an initial meeting in the town of Kimberley to discuss the issue of conflict diamonds. Now we have been part of that process ever since and we are one of the organisations that actively participate in the management of the Kimberley Process - we're part of the Civil Society Coalition that participates in the Kimberley Process.

Gonda: Now Mr Chikane actually defended his actions saying that he felt that he had been given classified documents or that he thought that he was in possession of a 'stolen document'. Is it really appropriate to describe it as a 'stolen document'? We now know that is was a leaked internal document compiled by the security forces exposing violations by the military especially, and although we don't know who actually gave who this document in terms of between the two of them, at the end of the day, Mr Maguwu's organisation has been gathering evidence on what is happening in the Chiadzwa area, surely the army wouldn't have passed on this information about itself, about the crimes that are taking place in these diamond fields?

Taylor: I couldn't agree with you more. You know if you compare this to a situation where let's say, a reporter is reporting on a crime that has been committed, or crimes, this is tantamount to the reporter being imprisoned for reporting on crimes because that is what Mr Maguwu has been doing. He is a witness to some of the things that have been happening in Zimbabwe , he's reported on it and now he's been arrested for all this. And of course, the KP monitor is partly responsible for that situation. So, yes, it all adds up to a very unfortunate and very sad and very dangerous situation and I'm not sure how this will end but I think everyone involved really needs to consider their position and do the right thing.

Gonda: Now Mr Chikane's internal report to the Kimberley Process has already been leaked to the press and in the leaked report I understand that the South African monitor is actually recommending that Zimbabwe be allowed to resume diamond exports. Your thoughts on this?

Taylor: Well you know that the Kimberley Process monitor, Mr Chikane, after his visit to Zimbabwe had to write a report to the committee in the KP that oversees his work. Now that is an internal report that he has sent to the committee, which is meeting on Monday June the 14 th. It appears that that report has been leaked and extracts from it were published for example in the Herald newspaper in Harare. We, organisations that are members of this committee which also has many governments, African governments and other governments that are members of the committee are not supposed to comment on a document, an internal document like that before it is discussed but clearly, given as this has been released and extracts have appeared in the paper, I can comment on those extracts - and if you like my broadest comment would be that I don't think that that report and its conclusion reflects the reality in Zimbabwe. The report's conclusion which seems to be that all is sufficiently well for certification of diamonds from Chiadzwa to happen. I question how that matches up with the reality that we know of where diamond smuggling continues apace across the border from Chiadzwa into Mozambique, where the military still controls most of the area, where military syndicates are operating in mining, where you have the head of police, police commissioner Augustine Chihuri has written to the ministry asking for mining concessions for the police, where you have different levels of illegality that we are aware of in how these companies, the two companies that have been operating. There are so many different aspects to this that are far from clear and seem to go against the normal operating of a diamond industry, that it's a report which says that everything seems to be fine seems like a whitewash. So we are really unhappy about the current situation.

Gonda: So has the monitor got the authority to decide on this by himself, or to certify Zimbabwe 's diamonds he'd need the committees approval?

Taylor: Yes the committee itself will look at the report and if there is full agreement, consensus agreement within the committee, then if they agreed with a recommendation to certify or to go forward and be prepared to certify diamonds, saying that Zimbabwe had met the minimum requirements, then the KP monitor would be able to go forward and do that, but he himself doesn't have the decision making power, it's the committee that decides if and how he can go forward. If there's no consensus, if no decision can be taken, then the committee will have to deliberate further. If you look back to six months ago when the plenary of the KP met in Namibia, there was no consensus there, some were arguing that Zimbabwe, because of its serious non-compliance with the KP should be expelled from the KP, others were defending Zimbabwe's position and in the end a sort of compromise position was agreed and this Work Plan that Mr Chikane has been monitoring was this compromise position. So if there's no consensus next week then further discussions will occur and logically at some stage there will be some sort of compromise decision taken, but what that will be and when it will occur I just couldn't say.

Gonda: What is the general feeling right now or rather, which parties are in favour of certification?

Taylor: Well I wish I knew the answer, the complete answer to that. I really am not able to say with any certainty, you can imagine that in a compromise programme of work such as this is, that you get a variety of opinions and I'm aware of some opinions that are very, very angry about what has happened and are really unhappy and some that are probably far more conciliatory, so I would expect there to be mixed opinions on Monday. But I can't say for certain.

Gonda: You said earlier on it's by consensus, so does this means it only needs one person to say they are not agreeing with the recommendations and the recommendations won't be passed?

Taylor: That is the normal way of working in the Kimberley Process. Up to now there is no sort of voting system, I think that's public knowledge, everyone knows that and in a way it's a strength but also a weakness of the Kimberley Process. It's a strength because it brings everyone with you when decisions are taken, that is consensus. It's a weakness because it may mean that decisions take longer to reach because there is more negotiation, more discussion. So you are correct to say that if there is opposition from one or more people or organisations, then the decision is, normally speaking, not able to be taken.

Gonda: As the Partnership Africa Canada, do you think that the time has come for Zimbabwe 's diamonds to be certified?

Taylor: That's not our impression, no. And independent research that we have carried out indicates there are some very serious things occurring in Zimbabwe which we do not feel are normal and which we feel should be radically changed and so to give a sort of blessing to a situation which we feel to be highly corrupt I think would be entirely wrong for the Kimberley Process to do.

Gonda: There are of course serious allegations that have been raised about Mr Chikane's impartiality and also integrity. You even have Mr Maguwu accusing him of setting him up and that some rights groups in Zimbabwe are wondering how Mr Chikane came to such a conclusion about Zimbabwe's diamonds when facts on the ground speak a different story and you also said this earlier on, so the question is, has the KP monitor been compromised here?

Taylor: I think your question is very pertinent. As I said earlier, I think at the very beginning he was in a very, very difficult situation in terms of the nature of the work which is extremely difficult if not impossible given the realities of the diamond sector in Chiadzwa in our opinion and of course what has happened over the last couple of weeks where I believe that he has lost the ability to dialogue with civil society in Zimbabwe. I say I don't think people will be able to give him information in the future because of the fear of arrest. So is he able to undertake his work? I think that is a very serious question that should be posed and is posed and we'll have to see what the answer to that is.

Gonda: Is this a question that your organisation will pose at this meeting?

Taylor: I'm sure it will come up from several participants at the meeting and we will certainly raise the feasibility of him being able to continue in this role given all that has happened.

Gonda: And one of your coalition partners, Global Witness, has rejected Mr Chikane's claims and is actually callingfor the immediate suspension of the monitoring arrangement for Chiadzwa. What is your organisation's position on this?

Taylor: Well given the events that occurred when we issued a joint communiqué statement last week, along with the civil society groups, we asked for a suspension of the current Work Plan so we are together on that and that is what we would still ask for in such a meeting, so let us see what happens on Monday.

Gonda: And a final word Mr Taylor.

Taylor: I think, well thank you for your continuing interest and your hard work at exploring the difficulties in Zimbabwe and particularly in Chiadzwa. This is really, really a very, very serious situation because not only does it affect a corner of Zimbabwe and one particular economic sector, but I think it has the potential to affect the future political course of Zimbabwe. You know that people are critical of how the political authorities in Zimbabwe seem to be closely connected, personally connected with the diamond trade there and if you'll allow me I would like to read just one sentence that CRD, the organisation of Mr Farai Maguwu has written and the organisation has written that - "It is immoral and obscene for a few individuals, how be it well connected and powerful, to swim in an ocean of affluence while a population is marooned on a no-man's land between starvation and malnutrition. The CRD invites Zimbabwe civil society to take a firm and united position against the looting of natural, of national resources," And so we concur with that sort of statement and we thank you for your continuing enquiries.

Gonda: Thank you for talking to us on the programme Hot Seat.