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of 'Hot Seat' interview with Munyaradzi Gwisai, Glen Mpani and Mike
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
July 03, 2007
On the programme Hot
Seat journalist Violet Gonda hosts a round table discussion with
socialist and politician Munyaradzi Gwisai, Glen Mpani, a student
of democratic governance at the University of Cape Town and civic
leader Mike Davies.
Gonda: Zimbabwe has been witnessing a wave of strikes by
many groups demanding better working conditions in a country that
now has the highest inflation rate in the world and the fastest
shrinking economy outside a war zone. What needs to happen to turn
around this crisis? To discuss the issues we welcome former MDC
MP and social commentator from the International Socialist Organisation,
Gwisai who is speaking
to us from Zimbabwe, Glen Mpani, a student studying democratic governance
at the University of South Africa and a studio guest right here
at SW Radio Africa, Mike Davies, the Chairperson of the Combined
Harare Ratepayers Association. Welcome on the programme Hot Seat.
All: Hello Violet, thank
Now, I'm going to start with Mike Davies, can you tell us
or give us an update on the situation facing residents at present
Mike Davies: well of
course the situation in Zimbabwe continues to deteriorate at a rapid
rate. We're engaged in a civil disobedience campaign at the
moment which combines elements both of street action, protests at
neighbourhood level as well as CBD level but also the financial
civil disobedience around the rates boycott; which is taking off
very well at the moment and is starting to snowball. So, we use
a combination of tactics to achieve our goals. Our strategy is to
emphasize the illegitimate nature of the Makwavarara Commission
occupying Town House and to get people to acknowledge that as citizens
they need to take whatever measures they are comfortable with, that
are feasible to try and dislodge that Commission which continues
to steal money on a daily basis. As far as the street level protests
are concerned, it's very difficult in Harare to mobilise people
for street action and hopefully we'll come up with some ideas
during this discussion, but, people are so impoverished in Harare
. It's very difficult to explain to people in Britain the
level of poverty that afflicts people. They do not have the energy
to engage in social activism any more; they are solely concerned
with daily survival, with the grind of trying to find food, shelter
etc. That it is unrealistic to expect those people to engage in
civil protests that would merely result in them getting beaten or
going to jail for a few days.
Do you agree with this Munyaradzi? Or rather, if the situation
in Zimbabwe is as bad as it is reported, why are Zimbabweans not
Munyaradzi Gwisai: Well,
I think that's been the issue up to now and to commend Mike
Davies and the organisation he leads, CHRA, for being among some
of the organisations that are holding the candle in the last few
years, along with other organisations like WOZA, the NCA and the
International Socialist Organisation where I come from, and of course,
the Labour movement. It's been a difficult situation, exhaustion,
from facing a very brutal and sophisticated dictatorship; sometimes
without real chances of success; but also, I think, disillusionment
with the leadership of the general opposition movement about having
failed to lead people. Those were the factors.
But, I would slightly
take a different view from what Davies said about the current situation.
I mean, just as I speak, just this weekend alone, in Budiriro, Saturday,
there was a demonstration by women and children protesting against
lack of water. They've not had water now for up to two weeks
in Budiriro and Glen View. And, I also attended a residents meeting
in Chitungwiza; in fact attended, you know, combined by both CHRA
andCHIRA, where residents are totally up in arms against the supplementary
charges and the feeling and mood there was simply one of 'when
do we get in the streets'.
So, I think what Davies
said is correct up to now but what we have seen in the last month
is a huge deterioration in the lives of ordinary people, even the
middle classes. The economy is virtually coming apart now and that
is I think what is driving, and likely to drive real action if the
civic groups, the labour movement, the political parties are prepared
to come out and lead such a movement. And, if anything the response
of the Mugabe regime in the last month is what shows you that the
country is now at a precipice. The country is now at an edge as
a result of the economic crisis. You know the imposition of the
price freeze, the slashing of prices, arresting of business executives.
All that is a clear indication that the regime is aware that things
can explode. What is really required now is unity of serious forces,
courage of leadership. Otherwise this regime, in many ways, is now
in a corner.
We will come to the issue of unity later on but what I
think I'm hearing from both Mike and Munyaradzi is that protest
is taking place, but at a smaller scale and it's mainly residents
who are embarking on these demonstrations. Now, Glen, you are studying
protest potential in Zimbabwe . Why has this willingness to protest
diminished in Zimbabwe even as the ZANU PF government has become
Glen: Thank you so much
Violet, I think, what I would want to do is that some of the issues
raised by Munyaradzi and Davies, they are quite true. That there
are a number of factors that can cause protest potential to diminish
in any country when there are problems. One is basically the repressive
nature of the Mugabe regime, I think that demobilises individuals.
The second thing is the economic factors that are there in Zimbabwe
. To say if the situation is bad it is very difficult to mobilise
people to do that. But, I think the take that I would want to give
to this is the fact that what we need more is to come up with strategies
to mobilise people to get into the streets, because, what has not
been built within Zimbabwe is a network and a social capital that
puts confidence in an individual who is suffering in Zimbabwe to
say 'if I'm going to do this, there is benefit that
is going to come out of the process'. But if people feel that
the leadership that is driving that process is not coming up with
the necessary initiatives for the m to do that, I think it is very
difficult to get individuals to get into the streets. And, some
of the examples that I would want to site; and I'm very glad
that Davies and WOZA are using that; is where you have these small
networks within the communities on rentals and things like that,
to build individuals to do that. Because, necessarily, if you try
and use political parties to do that, I think if you go to a rally
and you say to people 'do you want to protest and do that',
they will say 'yes' they want to do that. But, when
they go on they make individual decisions to say 'am I supposed
to do it or not and what are the benefits that are directly going
to come to me as an individual'. So, those are some of the
problems that come out when one decides whether to participate in
protest or not.
And Glen, is it possible that the problem could also be
to do with culture? I mean have people ever been orientated in how
to deal with this kind of crisis?
Glen: The issue of culture,
Violet, I think it's one thing that basically people try to
disregard that to say no, culture does not have any effect in terms
of whether people are going to protest or not. But, you also have
to look at the history of Zimbabwe . I think our liberation struggle
was guerrilla warfare where individuals did not necessarily confront
the regime, so the culture of protesting and getting to the streets
is not there within Zimbabwe . So I think that is one of the contributory
factors, to say, if you tell people 'we are going to get into
the streets' are they inclined towards that? So, there is
need now for mobilisation and taking people through a process of
education to say 'these strategies work. And, you don't
need to use one strategy, there are many ways to do it; boycotts,
like what Davies is saying, are necessary things that you can use
against the regime.
You know Mike, let me come back to the issue of strategies. I spoke
with Jenni Williams recently and she said the main or major problem
is that there's no unity within the pro-democracy movement;
CHRA does its own thing, NCA does its own thing, WOZA women do their
own things. Why is it like that?
Mike Davies: Well, I
think that going back to the early days of the movement in 1998/1999
when NCA was strong and we created the Movement for Democratic Change,
at that time we were engaged in a noble mission. We had a fairly
clear-cut goal; we were united in that goal. Since then there's
been enormous divisive pressures that have driven us apart, that
have led us to question our strategic and tactical alliances with
other groups because we've questioned the various goals that
people have. We seem to have lost a lot of vision that provided
that unity and certainly, we have been coming together with other
groups to try and re-establish a clear vision so that we know what
we are fighting for.
There are many people
in Zimbabwe who are opposed to the Mugabe regime but they are not
necessarily fighting for genuine change to our system. They are
merely fighting to change the faces at the trough. Some of us are
actually trying to destroy the trough or at least limit access to
the trough. So, this has been one of the big problems; is to have
clarity of vision that allows us to build strategic and tactical
alliances that are meaningful and are not just rhetorical and fade
at the first challenge.
Glen : Sorry, Violet,
I just wanted to say something on that also. To say, I think one
of the other challenges that I also noticed is the privatisation
of the struggle within Zimbabwe, where even those who are within
the struggle in Zimbabwe have gone on to take up stances that by
the end of the day they are now a liability to the process and driving
the process. So, there are now also selfish interests that are now
come into individuals that are driving this process. And, I think
as an individual I see that someone is getting private gain out
of this process, I might not necessarily get inclined to what you
are saying because I know that ultimately, at the end of the day,
there are resources that are ultimately going to accrue to you as
an individual, so there's no reason why I should participate.
So protest also has a lot to do with trust.
Munyaradzi Gwisai: Ya,
and if that is not there it's very difficult.
And do you agree that the struggle has been privatised?
Munyaradzi Gwisai: Yes,
privatised and commodified. We call it the commodification of resistance
syndrome where, given the crisis, many of those who lead these groups
and organisations, in fact, have been living quite well off as a
result of the financial support that has poured into civic society
and that can be a big hindrance in people uniting, because everyone
wants their little group to shine and appear in the papers so that
they get more donor funding coming in. So that's obviously
a major problem that we have to confront. And, go back to the ethos
of the liberation struggle; people were prepared to make sacrifices
for a cause that they believed in.
But I think obviously,
besides that, there has been a problem of ideological bankruptcy,
there are ideological and strategic weaknesses that, after 2002/
2003, the belief amongst the main players, except some of the few
groups that have remained in the opposition movement, has been a
belief that you can achieve change in Zimbabwe through simple -
through the electoral route, through applying to the Courts, through
sanctions from the West, but that clearly has failed to give results
and it has disillusioned people. So I think that lack of preparedness,
to have courage to face the regime has contributed a great deal.
And then there are those that have also been scared of going through
the full mass action route because as Davies said they are afraid
of the consequences of such a route because it would radicalise
the whole movement, into a movement not just against the dictatorship
but against the neo-liberal capitalist framework that it has been
imposing in this country.
So, from a socialist perspective, what do you think that needs to
happen for democracy to take place in Zimbabwe ?
Munyaradzi Gwisai. Well,
we have already seen events in Nigeria , there's been a powerful
huge strike in Nigeria that ended a week or so ago and there was
also a big general strike in South Africa . But, the Nigerian one
in particular holds very important lessons for us. The general strike
was led by a united front of labour and civic groups called the
Labour/ Civic Society Coalition and they have were able to drive
this action centred around bread and butter issues, you know, fuel
price increases, huge increases in basic goods. What we need now
in Zimbabwe is to build this huge united front that is ready to
move into the streets, that is after real mobilisation, across the
board; uniting labour, uniting civil society, uniting political
opposition parties, demanding that we demand a new people driven
constitution before elections, demanding that we require living
wages for workers, demanding that we require food on our shelves
at affordable prices, drugs for AIDS/HIV patients. So I think the
opportunity is there now despite what has been happening in the
last couple of years and the task on us is to ensure that this movement
is built now and that action is mobilised for.
Mike Davies: I would
like to come in there and say that the problem that we've
had with building such a movement is the ideological differences
that many of the actors have. This is not a fight about socialism
or anti liberalism and some of those issues; this is a fight to
allow us to engage in those struggles. We need to get rid of this
current regime to establish an environment in which we can engage
in discussions around class conflict, around race, etc, around gender
and such. So we actually need to suspend many of our own personal
agendas, our organisational agendas, our own ideological perspectives
that we can actually come together with rural, white, capitalists;
the white capitalist farmers for instance, with the Churches, that
we might not agree with them and their perspective on society but,
so we can unite against a common enemy to create a society in which
we can then engage in those struggles.
but how do you do that exactly, because some would say that is just
rhetoric. What are the practical steps to build this real united
front? You are talking about ideological differences, how do you
bring the people together?
Mike Davies: Well, firstly,
you have to have that idea, that recognition that we need to transcend
some of our own perspectives. I have had to work with people I don't
necessarily believe or trust or have common goals, but, I know that
by using our energies together we can perhaps get to a stage where
we will get rid of this current enemy and be able to engage in those
Do you think the MDC, you know, either faction, can implement this?
Mike Davies (laughs)
well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. We have to see
what they deliver. Many of us are disillusioned by the high level
of rhetoric and the low level of action that we've seen from
the MDC; that they can make the right noises but when it comes to
deliverables, we don't see it. So, we are disillusioned with
that political party model. This is not about putting political
parties or individuals into power. This is about trying to establish
an environment in which Zimbabweans can choose freely who they want
to lead themselves.
And Glen, what do you think is going on in opposition politics?
Glen: I think
one of the challenges of social revolutions and mobilising people
is that at times when that happens the leaders emerge out of that
process who might not necessarily be from the political structures
that are there. And, one of the things that I see happening very
clearly within the two factions of the MDC is a tendency of selfishness
to say if there are groups like CHRA doing activities, groups like
WOZA doing activities, groups like Munyaradzi Gwisai doing activities,
they would not want to come in and support their initiatives. But,
unfortunately, what they are not realising is that no matter how
small these groups are, they are the ones who are basically able
to drive people to get into the streets. So, what they should be
doing as a political party is to use these organisations as think
tanks, as strategists to ensure that they can infiltrate the communities,
to ensure that when people mobilise for a protest, it should not
be necessary to say 'because we are not involved we just put
out a press statement and then we leave it like that'.
That will not work because
the cause should drive the process rather than who is doing it.
So, the challenge for me within the MDC is to say - currently they
don't have the capacity to do that and they have been moving
on the same cycle, as they are going on to say they condemn what
is happening, they prepare for elections, they say time is going
to be coming and currently now they are engaged in negotiations,
which in my own view are quite futile and they are a waste of time.
Munyaradzi Gwisai: If
I can come in and take up from what Davies is saying and what Glen
is also saying, I completely agree Davies that we need to unite
around that which unites us but I think there are also certain fundamentals
of our struggle that we are talking about; commercialisation of
the struggle, is that when those with money bags come into our movements,
they have distorted the objectives of our struggle. And then, secondly,
as we speak today, the level of poverty and desperation of ordinary
people, you cannot bring out people in the streets purely for instance
raising issues of the constitution for instance, or raising political
issues. The movements also have to address the real bread and butter
issues that are confronting the people.
As we speak in the next
week or two weeks, the shelves are going to be empty, things are
going to be bought on the black market. So what we need to do is
to link the different struggles of CHRA / CHIRA against supplementary
increases, the struggles of those fighting for AIDS, for drugs,
for water. To begin to link those into one major stream or river
of struggle; link those different streams into a real river of struggle.
So, we cannot - yes, I agree with you that it might not be a struggle
for socialism, but it is also true that people are suffering two
Mike Davies: I agree
Munyaradzi Gwisai: The
dictatorship in the shops; the dictatorships of the state, and that
can unite us, but, in doing so, you know that most of the major
business communities are not participating in this because some
of them are either benefiting or, they are not ready to make the
sacrifices. The movement in terms of those who see those two levels
needs to unite. And, I would say, to be honest with you, if you
look at what this regime has done in the last two weeks, the regime
is clearly afraid that if we were to unite these different struggles
together bringing in labour, bringing in the major opposition parties
and civic society, getting out of the useless Mbeki talks, getting
out of the social contract, we could really build up major action
on the ground that would ensure that we are then able to build the
democratic space that Davies is talking about and also the end of
this regime. That is the challenge today.
That's what I wanted to ask that you know it's
been said that South Africa and the International Community are
entertaining or supporting this idea of a reformed ZANU PF. Now
what creature do you think would have to implement these positive
changes that you are talking about?
Munyaradzi Gwisai: Ya,
we are aware, and this is why I say to Davies that we have to have
a clear ideological clarity; we are aware that not just the South
African President, but many sections in the West and amongst the
business elites would prefer, or are now ready for a compromise
situation where you would see Mugabe go but he is replaced by either
a reformed ZANU, in unity with certain sections of the MDC who are
prepared to be part of a national unity government but proceed to
implement the ESAP programme that Gideon Gono has started. Now,
that is not going to deliver real democracy. It is not going to
provide food for ordinary people.
What we need to do now
is to get these forces together. I think that what happened on March
11 th and in February in Highfield shows that there was a growing
recognition between the opposition and civil society that people
can work together and move together. And, that is what we need to
build on and move on in the next couple of weeks, as the economic
crisis begins to explode, and mobilise and act together in a genuine
united democratic front; not one that is controlled by one force;
one in which we democratically share together.
Mike Davies: Absolutely
I agree with you and one of the problems with the March 11th experience
was that it was essentially a leadership driven process that achieved
a propaganda victory rather than a mobilisation victory. What we
found with these larger demonstrations is that they really only
have one purpose and that is to generate arrests followed by media
interest. They are actually demobilising for ordinary people. And,
just going back to an earlier issue about trying to mobilise people
around so called abstract concepts like the constitution, democracy,
governance, we learnt several years ago that people can't
eat those concepts, they do not deliver tangible results in the
short term. So in the last three years we have shifted away from
CBD centralised protests, high profile with media etc to very diffused
local actions, our sewerage bucket protests last year. These generated
immediate tangible results for those communities and there was no
media coverage, we did not tell anybody.
They were small neighbourhood
actions to empower people, to get a sense of their power as citizens
and to try and break this subjectification of our people, that they
are subjects, do what they are told and have no rights as citizens.
The rights develop from the issue based activities that they engage
in. Suddenly, they have exercised a little bit of power, the sewerage
pipe has been repaired within 48 hours and they think 'Oh
OK, what can we do next'. It's not leadership driven;
we're not going in and saying 'do this, do that, follow
us, we'll lead you to the promised land, but, we are presenting
possibilities and then helping to facilitate those initiatives.
And, I think that's really important;' that we have
a lot of small fires than trying to light one big bonfire in Africa
Unity Square .
But it seems the small fires are only taking place in towns
like Harare , but not everywhere else in the country. So do you
not think that there is a leadership vacuum in these other areas
and are the political parties the ones to drive the people when
it comes to the large scale protests?
Mike Davies: Well, I
think it's very easy to get locked into accusations that leaders
are getting enriched, that they've got lots of money, that
they dominate things. These are ultimately unproductive and often
are based on misconceptions of the nature of leadership of organisations.
Often you get discredited because you are travelling abroad to do
some lobby work, we get it within our own organisation. I think
those need to be dealt with in a way that is not divisive but actually
allows for some degree of unity.
The truth of the matter
is that Zimbabwe has been decimated by this crisis, 70% of our adult
population no longer lives there, they've essentially disengaged
from this struggle, the rural areas are so, so subject to ZANU PF's
rule that people have very little opportunity to engage in action.
However, this is happening, we saw the women in Gwanda protesting
about the arrests of their mining husbands. A lot of small fires
will be as effective as one big fire. And, I think we mustn't
dismiss the small actions that seemingly don't have a greater
strategy, but they will feed into general mobilisation and empowerment
of the people.
Munyaradzi Gwisai: I
just wanted to say, I think this is the key, we need to build confidence
in terms of the ordinary people, in terms of the ordinary activists,
through these struggles that are linked to the bread and butter
issues but at the same time also highlighting the political dimension.
What I would only say is that the urgency of the situation now,
in terms of the crisis is such that we need to do both. I think
we need to continue expanding the small fires or the small streams
and doing them together such that for instance, at the Zimbabwe
Social Forum, where we are also active, if CHRA calls for action
in terms of the sewerage, we will then get the women of WOZA, we
will then get labour and others in that community participating.
Whilst at the same time, beginning now, I think as a matter of urgency,
to begin to get our various movements together around a programme
of fighting around these basic issues.
I just wanted to ask a question to Munyaradzi and Davies. As the
problems in Zimbabwe have been sliding, has their ever been an initiative
just to form a coalition that strategizes on protest in Zimbabwe
Mike Davies: Yes, there
has, a couple of years ago we had the Broad Alliance, well initially,
the Crisis Coalition and then we had the Broad Alliance and now
the Save Zimbabwe. Unfortunately, those formulations they are very
much leadership driven, they are top-down, they are foray for the
leaders to come together and inevitably these things either become
hegemonic exercises by political parties to dominate and direct
civics or they jump on the Zimbabwe gravy train and engage in institution
building and foreign travel and lobbying and preaching to the converted.
They fail to engage at a local level. For instance, Save Zimbabwe
on the ground is not really doing much in neighbourhood communities
and such. Most of their work is to engage at an international level
rather than a national level?
And Munyaradzi? .
Munyaradzi Gwisai: I
think Davies is right. What you've had are popular alliances
which emerge from the top and which are leadership driven. You've
not had the activists coming together. And I think it reflects what
I've said are the problems of ideological clarity and commercialisation
of the struggle in the sense that some would prefer a situation
where the Zimbabwe crisis would be solved through an elite settlement.
A settlement of leaders but without addressing the underlying cause
of economic poverty and dictatorship. So, I think we have seen from
the experience of the three or four alliances that Davies has referred
to, that, that will not succeed.
What we have to do is
to have a united front that brings both leaderships and their memberships
around a programme of action that raise both economic and political
issues against both the state and also supermarkets, businesses
that are making huge profits from the crisis. I mean Delta and Meikles,
you know these are some of the big companies on the Zimbabwe Stock
Exchange, have made huge gains in the past two weeks and they own
companies and supermarkets.
Mike Davies : They are
doing very nicely during the crisis, they are doing better than
the inflation rate.
So the crisis has become a business for many people
Mike Davies : Oh absolutely
Glen: Ya, ya, people
benefit from this
Munyaradzi Gwisai: Ya,
so we have to target these people as well
Mike Davies: the rent-seeking
behaviour in Zimbabwe is phenomenal, people that are doing nothing
to productivity but are merely engaged in shifting goods and getting
arbitrage from that, without adding value.
Violet: What about on
the issue of the Diaspora because many people have said that the
Diaspora is holding the economy in Zimbabwe . So Glen, this is a
question for you, do you think that the Diaspora has a role to determine
how change comes about in Zimbabwe and should it stop sending money?
Glen: Ya, I think one
of the challenges that we need to look at is that the Diaspora is
causing the free-rider problem. Where if my mother in Zimbabwe knows
that Glen is going to be sending a couple of Rands, it does not
motivate her to be part and parcel of a cause within Zimbabwe to
ensure that the problems are being addressed, because, I think sending
money is just a short term benefit that she can derive. There is
a greater thing to be achieved. So the Diaspora is contributing
immensely to that problem, and, in terms of strategies whether the
Diaspora needs to stop sending money or not, I think that will also
get to the moral problem and I don't know to what extent people
in the Diaspora would want to say 'lets shut out our parents
and relatives in Zimbabwe and starve them for a while so they can
be able to respond to this social movement'.
Mike Davies: That's
not going to happen.
Glen : That's not
going to happen
Because it means telling someone not to send money to their ailing
mother, it's a difficult one.
Mike Davies : Absolutely.
Munyaradzi Gwisai: You
know people have been kept alive by their relatives and friends
from outside. It would be wrong for us to do that and we would not
support that certainly. But I think the Diaspora has a role in terms
of beginning to build up a solidarity movement you know in South
Africa , in the UK , wherever they are; linking up with grassroots
movements, Trade Union movements, social movements. Like what happened
during the anti apartheid struggle or against the colonial regime
here. They must now not only send home to their parents but we want
to see them actively engaged in solidarity action in the various
countries that they are. I think that can also inspire people back
here and make sure that our struggle is driven internationally as
well as from here.
Mike Davies: we mustn't
fall into the trap though of regarding the Diaspora as a homogenous
group all having similar views and agendas. Many in the Diaspora
are purely economic refugees if not active supporters of ZANU PF
and certainly I've experienced that in England . People have
no interest in addressing the political situation back home. They
are there, they are taking advantage of the situation, they doing
reasonably well, and they are maintaining many, many relatives back
home. This benefits Mugabe in two ways, so that the opponents are
outside the country and are earning real money, which is ameliorating
the suffering of people back home.
Glen: But Davies one
of the challenges that I have also noticed in even trying to engage
with the associations that are there within Zimbabwe is that the
moment they come and visit when they come into the Diaspora and
to try engage them on the Zimbabwean issue, there is even this perception
to say you are here, what can you tell us, you ran away from the
struggles back home, you are not really grounded to understand what's
happening, you are speaking yet you are not in the fire and we are
there we know better. I think it's a challenge because it
now becomes a tussle of ideas to say what needs to be done. The
Diaspora could be used as a thinking tank as people who are there
possibly to help to in terms of helping in these strategies of how
to mobilise people. So I think there is also that challenge as to
how the Diaspora engages with civil organisations in Zimbabwe .
I need to wind up, I'm running out of time. Mike, is it possible
to have a ZANU PF Government?
Mike Davies: Well, I
think one thing that we must realise is that whatever the future
holds it's not going to be something that we hope for or that
we anticipate. It might be one of a number of scenarios that we
postulate. What will develop will develop out of a whole range of
dynamics and forces. It is very possible that a split in ZANU PF,
those people will unite with some MDC elements to have a government
of national unity to merely change faces at the trough, to have
an elite accommodation that will not deliver any structural change,
will not address the causes of social injustices in Zimbabwe. That
is a very real danger and one that those of us on the left need
to identify and try to prevent as best we are able.
And Glen what role do you think or do you see Africa playing in
Glen: No I think Africa
plays a very, very important role and that other learning from what
has happened in Zimbabwe it is one situation that is untenable,
I think what Africa needs to be able to do is ensure that the necessary
changes that need to take place, like what Davies has mentioned,
the structural changes are done and we don't just have a cosmetic
change where we just say we've got new leadership. So I think
Africa has got a very pivotal role to play but whether they are
going to be given that opportunity to do it or not I think it's
an issue that we can debate.
And Munyaradzi, you know you were once an opposition MP and of course
you fell out of favour with the MDC now you seem to have gone off
the radar a bit there, what's happening to you now?
Munyaradzi Gwisai: Oh
well I think as you say the struggle is coming back, we were off
the radar because people thought you could pacify and talk this
regime out of power but certainly now we are very active in the
Labour movements and the Zimbabwe Social Forum and other such forces
and what we are saying now is that there is a historic opportunity
for the working people of this country to really unite and be able
to finish what they started in 1997 /'98/'99. That is
really a movement from below to remove this dictatorship and also
to remove the conditions of poverty, which are being caused by ESAP,
these economic programmes of neo liberal capitalism.
Thank you very much Munyaradzi Gwisai, Mike Davies and Glen Mupane.
All: Thanks Violet.
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