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Hot Seat Interview: Co-Home Affairs Minister Giles Mutsekwa denies banning demos during World Cup
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
May 28, 2010

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat28052010.htm

Co-Home Affairs Minister Giles Mutsekwa has come under a lot of criticism for allegedly 'doing little' in such an important ministry. In the interview the Minister denies banning Zim demos during the period of the forthcoming World Cup soccer tournament in South Africa. He also reveals the difficulties he is facing in trying to reform the 'partisan police force'.

Violet Gonda: Co-Home Affairs Minister Giles Mutsekwa is my guest on the Hot Seat programme, talking about the challenges he is facing in this controversial ministry that he co-runs with ZANU PF's Kembo Mohadi. Mutsekwa has also come under a lot of criticism for allegedly doing little in such an important ministry. Media reports recently quoted police Commissioner Augustine Chihuri saying that demos and protests in Zimbabwe were banned during the World Cup soccer tournament in South Africa. The police department comes under the Home Affairs Ministry and I first asked the co-Minister if demonstrations in Zimbabwe had been banned until after the World Cup?

Giles Mutsekwa: It is not true Violet. It is absolutely untrue. There is no such thing as government of Zimbabwe banning protests during the era of the World Cup which is being staged in South Africa, but I also know that this rumour has circulated purely on the basis of a publication which was very sensational and that was carried by one of our weeklies here in Zimbabwe, which used words which are not familiar with democracy at all, so no, not at all, there's no intention, there'll never be banning of any freedoms of expression in Zimbabwe, especially by this inclusive government.

Gonda: So there is no attempt to ban protests, to prevent adverse publicity during the time of the World Cup because we understand that the Home Affairs ministers from the region were called to South Africa to discuss this issue, so this never happened?

Mutsekwa: I can confirm that the Home Affairs ministers in the region met, not only once but several times in South Africa and purely to strategise on how we should make the staging of games in South Africa an enjoyable event which will be free from violence, free from thuggery, free from human trafficking, free from all these other acts of banditry that you can think of and within those meetings, an agreement was reached between or among ministers of Home Affairs in the region that we should do all what we could to help South Africa stage a very successful tournament.

In that regard respective countries were then asked or requested to do what could be in their power to ensure that no signs of violence, no signs of anything else could be observed in neighbouring countries so that we give the region a good name. But most importantly so that also visitors from the region go back to their respective countries with memories that they'd not like to forget in view of wanting to come back for investment. To that end, we in the Ministry of Home Affairs in Zimbabwe intend to appeal to the citizens of Zimbabwe to restrain themselves during the course of these events so that Zimbabwe, like any other SADC country can also benefit from the visitors that are going to be coming to the region, and we are saying to Zimbabweans that it would be beneficial to the country if we show exemplary behaviour during this period and if there are going to be any demonstrations which is a constitutional right for every citizen in Zimbabwe we ask that these be carried out peacefully so that there is no confrontation between the law enforcement agencies and the public of Zimbabwe so that we portray a good image of the democracy that we are trying to build here in Zimbabwe, and that cannot be compared to banning at all in any sense. In actual fact, that's an appeal that the Minister of Home Affairs, representing the government of Zimbabwe is making to Zimbabweans so that in the long run we all benefit from the World Cup that is being staged by the South Africans.

Gonda: But Minister, demonstrations in Zimbabwe are usually peaceful, but it's the police who usually use violence to break up these demonstrations so shouldn't you be appealing to the police to behave themselves?

Mutsekwa: I fully appreciate your viewpoint, but yes it is true that we also appealed to the police force, but why I appealed to the citizens in the first place is that there are rules and regulations of what must be done if people intend to stage a demonstration and the first rule is that the law enforcement agencies in Zimbabwe are notified - not application for authority, not application for permit, for permission but notified. That is the first requirement that is required. And indeed as you correctly said the police force in Zimbabwe, because of the 30 years that it has existed under a dictatorship needs to improve image and indeed work double to ensure that they restore the trust and their legitimacy that the force must have. So yes there is need that we appeal to both the citizens of Zimbabwe and the police force as well but the emphasis here is that we do not want antagonism between the law enforcement agencies and the people of Zimbabwe during this particular time merely so that we give South Africa a chance but also indeed so that we benefit in the long run, long after the Games are over as a country.

Gonda: Again I go back to the issue of the ball being in your court as the Home Affairs department and also the police in Zimbabwe, when you say that the protesters usually notify the police, they do. They do normally notify the police and the police refuse, so don't you foresee a problem in the next few weeks where you'll see the police who I understand have already been directed or instructed not to allow demonstrations from June 1?

Mutsekwa: I totally agree with you Violet but there are instances where as you know people have also tried to evade notifying the police but, yes in most instances people have complied with the law and unfortunately police have acted again otherwise. You are also aware of a recent issue where in Bulawayo the youth from the Movement for Democratic Change had correctly notified the police of their intention to demonstrate and this was turned down for no apparent reason by the police. I'm sure you are also aware that the youth then appealed to me as the Minister for Home Affairs and I'm assured that that demonstration went ahead. So yes there could be isolated instances where these arguments can continue and as I say it will be unfortunate but I think there's going to be good rapport between the citizens and the law enforcement agencies. This is what I would like to see and I have no doubt that the people in Zimbabwe appreciate the need for good behaviour during that particular period because they are aware that our economy is so tiny and sick that we need a lot of investments in Zimbabwe that will eventually benefit everybody and I'm sure they will do everything in their power, the citizens of Zimbabwe to ensure that at least we showcase a democracy that is growing in Zimbabwe and this is the aim of the Ministry of Home Affairs that I represent.

Gonda: We have talked about this before but reports of intimidatory tactics continue in Zimbabwe. What is the Home Affairs Ministry doing about this?

Mutsekwa: Violet I do acknowledge we have received reports of this intimidatory tactics especially coming from the ZANU PF party against the supporters of the Movement for Democratic Change. These reports have come to us, they are well documented and in actual fact we are beginning to experience here in Zimbabwe Violet a situation that is similar to what occurred in 2008 where pungwes now have been resuscitated, where people have gone about intimidating people. Recently there have been reports of one Cabinet Minister who actually grouped up traditional chiefs in Masvingo and asked that there shall not be in their villages, supporters of the Movement for Democratic Change and all these things we are beginning to get.

It is a concern to the Ministry of Home Affairs but as you might want to appreciate Violet this goes outside the entire ambit of the Ministry of Home Affairs, it actually requires the entire government and more so it requires the principals themselves to discuss in depth about these particular problems. It's a perfect carbon copy of what happened in 2008 and once it comes to that with the kind of police that we have got in the country today, whom everybody knows are requiring a lot of transformation, we will obviously face some problems - but I am very hopeful that at that level, and I'm talking about the principals level, this issue will be adequately discussed. I also intend to raise this issue when we meet in the National Security Council beginning of next week so that we take a common position as a government, an inclusive government and ensure that a strict and orderly directive are given.

Gonda: But Minister, this is not a new issue so how do you respond to people who are saying its all talk and no action? Are you saying that your hands are tied and there's not much that you can do, or what is really the problem here because surely by now you should be able to command the police force to do something about the violence that is taking place in the country and also the selective arrests that are continuing?

Mutsekwa: You know the first problem that we have got in the country is constitutional and it's nice that you've posed this question because I think it is important for listeners to appreciate exactly what takes place in this arrangement. Firstly, talking about the police force themselves, constitutionally the police report, or the police commissioner reports directly to the State president who is President Robert Mugabe who gives directives, verbal or otherwise on anything that he wants done. And secondly there is also the Attorney General of the country who can also give verbal directives to the police on anything that he wants. And then there is an issue of the minister or the ministers themselves who also give a general directive on policy that's in written form. So what it means is that if the Ministry of Home Affairs as ministers were to give any general directive to police, it must be in written form and it must be signed by the two ministers. Now you can see the process? But this was actually purposely done to ensure that it incapacitates the Minister of Home Affairs because whilst you must issue directives in writing and this means it must then be agreed upon by the two ministers, there is also an impediment in that these directives must not be different, must not be contrary to the directives that might be given by the president of the State. So you can see there is a problem constitutionally already and this is the reason why our people must appreciate at times the difficulties that I face as a Minister of Home Affairs in trying to retransform the police force.

Gonda: So if it's on the issue of violence, so what do you talk about when you are with your counterpart from ZANU PF, Minister Kembo Mohadi and indeed the police commissioner Augustine Chihuri, what sort of relationship do you have with them on this issue?

Mutsekwa: Look the first thing that you must understand correctly is that my colleague and myself come from two political parties which are ideologically different, that's the first thing. The second issue is that you've got a police commissioner general who has been in this post for the last 30 years and that particular police commissioner has on various occasions associated himself with a particular political party, that's not a secret anymore in Zimbabwe. So you can see the challenges there and this obviously then brings in the other difficult equation. However I am determined Violet that we shall have democracy in Zimbabwe, this is what I mean when I say it now needs a combined effort but not only from the Minister of Home Affairs. You are aware that one reason why we proposed and agreed that we must have a National Security Council was because of these difficulties that we envisaged. We knew we are inheriting a police force, an army that was inherent with some of these problems caused by this 30 years of dictatorial rule in Zimbabwe. So we were aware even during negotiations that these problems will arise and that is why we decided we must have a National Security Council. And that is the job of the National Security Council to give directives, to give policy directives and instructions to all agents of security forces here in Zimbabwe and this is why everybody must attend the National Security Council and I am only hoping that because we are sitting regularly now we will overcome these problems. But it's bigger than what people and ordinary people think that as the Minister of Home Affairs you could ensure that there could be tranquillity without the cooperation of the rest of the security forces and I'm talking about the defence forces, I'm talking about the president's department, all those as I'm sure you are aware have something to do with the maintenance of tranquillity here in Zimbabwe.

Gonda: So when you are in this National Security Council, what do you talk about? Do you bring these issues up and what do they say?

Mutsekwa: You know Violet I'm not at liberty to really talk to you about what goes on in the National Security Council, that's a body whose discussions remain confidential but it is enough to say yes we bring up these issues and we shall continue to bring up these issues.

Gonda: What is the point of continuing as the MDC in this government when your hands are tied and you've mentioned that you inherited a partisan police force and you're having all these problems where you keep on talking about the disturbances that are continuing in the country and nothing ever changes? So what is the point of having these meetings and talking to these leaders who then go and instruct the police officers to do something that's totally different?

Mutsekwa: Violet transforming a security force, transforming agencies, transforming the security apparatus takes a lot of time. You'd know even in Tanzania up to now they are still battling with that exercise although the security forces all emerged from one single party. So transforming a security service is an issue that takes a hell of a time, we've only been a year in this inclusive government. It is a process, it will take time but the assurances we can give to people is that it will happen, that's the first thing. But you also ask why we continue to be in this government. You know we are in this government for various strategic reasons and I'm sure up to now people must have observed that we have achieved most of our strategic reasons why we are in this government.

So it's not just a question of us being in government to make sure that there is transformation, an immediate transformation. We understand we are privy to the process and I'm sure we are winning that and that is without any doubt - but you must remember that is a mammoth task and people need to be patient and it will happen. And as I say in Tanzania it took them a hell lot of time before they succeeded and we are not expecting miracles in Zimbabwe.

Gonda: You say you have been able to achieve quite a lot since the formation of the unity government, are you able to tell our listeners what sort of things that you have been able to do?

Mutsekwa: Firstly I'm sure you are aware Violet that before the formation of the inclusive government, there was no ways that we were, as the MDC were going to be in a position to be in contact rather with the security forces of this country, that's the first thing. The second thing is also that the hostility that prevailed during that time to the extent that some members of the security forces actually issued a statement that they were not going to accept any transferral of power to a person who was involved, who was not involved in the liberation struggle. All those things were impediments to achieving democracy and the environment has completely changed. So whilst I can only give those as an example I have only mentioned these few things so that I demonstrate to you the kind of achievement which is not visible to the naked eye especially our ordinary supporters but I can tell you that a lot of things have happened, a lot of things have changed.

Gonda: And as minister of the Home Affairs Ministry, where as you have said time and time again that it's very difficult to do your work because of the way the whole ministry has been politicised?

Mutsekwa: Well you see unless people start looking at the Ministry of Home Affairs as a ministry that runs various departments - the unfortunate thing Violet is that when people think about the Ministry of Home Affairs, their mind switch quickly to the police as if that is the only department that is run by the Ministry of Home Affairs. If you look at what is happening to the Registrar General for example, there have been a lot of changes that I have effected there, starting from as an example, the price of the passport itself where I have ensured that it is reduced from the 670 plus US dollars that it used to be to about 140 dollars as we speak now and my intention is that in the next two, three weeks I also want to further reduce that price, but that's just an example. But also if you visited the Registrar General's office today, you'd not see it as chaotic as it was and there are no queues that were a talk of the country and everything now is streamlined, but that's just the Registrar General's department. And you also go to Immigration, you know Immigration itself as you were aware that if you had ever visited Zimbabwe before the inclusive government one thing that was strikingly evident was that they didn't even have uniforms on and if you visit now, these people are well kitted in uniforms and everything else and there is training and retraining so that they mirror the correct image of the country because they are the first of the country as visitors come into Zimbabwe. All that had gone to the dogs and all that now is coming up. But there are a lot, a lot of other things that are happening but unfortunately as I say, people look at Home Affairs and they look at the police and of course the police, because of their tradition have been slow to accepting change and have been slow to transformation, but when I talk about the police, I'm talking about the top echelon. Members of the police here in the country now has completely observed and now they appreciate that there is no going back in this transformation.

Gonda: Well I think people will have to wait and see about that because events on the ground tell a different story about the police force, but on the issue of the Registrar General's office, corruption is still rife in the Registrar General's office where people are paying officials huge sums of money to get their passports. What are you trying to do about that? Perhaps this will be the reason why there are no longer a lot of queues because many people are forced to pay bribes so that they can get their passports?

Mutsekwa: Not at all, I disagree with that Violet but also there is no way that as the Minister I could say there is no corruption in a department. It's not only applicable to the Registrar General's department and it's not only applicable to Home Affairs, it's the entire civil service in Zimbabwe that has been so corrupted because of the behaviour of the economy before the inclusive government. You know civil servants in Zimbabwe, literally were going home with nothing and they'd find extra methods of surviving. That is still inherent within the entire civil service. So it is unfair just to point at the Registrar General's department as being corrupt - it is the entire civil service, we have got a mammoth task to do as government in that regard. But top of all is to ensure that the civil service themselves are paid adequately and most importantly that we weed out all ghost workers in the civil service so that we are able then to look after the remaining few so that we take care of them, we pay them adequately and they go home happy. But corruption will be with us with this government for quite some time and mostly in the civil service. But again Violet, corruption now in Zimbabwe is not only restricted to the civil service, it's endemic because of the collapse of the economy before the formation of this inclusive government. So we are aware as government, we are doing everything that we can but it is a process and I must emphasise that it is a process.

Gonda: And what is happening to the Emergency Travel Document because I understand that some of the countries like South Africa, neighbouring countries, are refusing to accept this document?

Mutsekwa: It is true. We introduced a temporary travel document and apparently our Registrar General forgot one or two issues that he had to attend to. Firstly it is a requirement by South Africa that any change to travel documents should be notified to them before the document is made public. It was overlooked by the Registrar General and it is inconveniencing our travellers who are going by road to South Africa. We have had communications at the highest level, I intend to travel to South Africa next week so that we have direct communication with my counterpart there and I hope then we will resolve the issue. But that is the reason why there is a problem there and that's only in South Africa, elsewhere the travel document, temporary travel document is being accepted with no problems at all.

Gonda: But Minister Mutsekwa, isn't that shocking that the Registrar General actually 'forgot' to tell his counterparts in South Africa where most Zimbabweans actually travel to?

Mutsekwa: You see he has got the reasons why he thinks he was not required to do that, but again what I said to him is that 'you do not dictate laws, or your laws that are practised in a foreign country as if you run that country'. So in short that was a bungle up and we have actually spoken to him accordingly and he admits that was an oversight.

Gonda: You spoke of weeding out ghost workers, what's happening with the voters' roll which also has a lot of ghost voters.

Mutsekwa: Certainly now we are preparing for elections now here in Zimbabwe and our eyes are on the voters' roll. We are going to overhaul the entire voters' roll but what we are waiting for is the commission to start coming up and dictating its rules and regulations before we come in. We are not sure at the moment whether as the Ministry of Home Affairs if we will be in charge of the voters' roll, there might be changes, but we are getting everything prepared so that once the commission is up and sworn in and they say that that work is going to be subcontracted ourselves, we'll do a perfect job.

Gonda: Some people have said that you have become a ZANU PF apologist and that's why you have also failed to do much in your ministry in terms of putting a stop to all the problems that we continue to see in Zimbabwe. How do you respond to that?

Mutsekwa: Firstly Violet there is only one person, probably just myself in the entire party who has never been in ZANU PF. I cannot be ZANU PF today. I've never been, will never be and have never been so it is incorrect to say that I could be an apologist for ZANU PF. You know I have gone through hardships because of this Party, I have been incarcerated more than anybody else, I spent years in jail, I have been tortured, I have lost property because of this Party and I know why I am in the Movement for Democratic Change. So it is obviously comments that would be coming from a few enemies that you could have around you, but those that know me better, know that I would never be part and parcel of that organisation and that is for sure.

Gonda: It is reported that some police officers are behind Roy Bennett's persecution. What's your position as the Home Affairs Ministry?

Mutsekwa: Well the Ministry has got no position in this case, that now becomes an issue for the Ministry of Justice. That question ought to be best answered by them but all I can tell you is that obviously this is very political, it's persecution and there's no reason in the first place why he was charged. You know Violet, I was charged under exactly the same sections and crime. You know that yourself in 2006 and I was acquitted, and therefore there was no need for any attempt to be made on trying to prosecute Bennett on the same charges that did not hold water. It's unfortunate that people don't talk loudly about the same charges that I was charged under in 2006 because they are exactly the same and I went through exactly the same trauma. But it's a political issue, it's been politicised, it's merely the hate that ZANU PF has got over Roy Bennett because of his colour and there is nothing more. I only hope that one day, God will prevail and free Roy Bennett. But also, you must also remember that the war that is being fought here, it's not just to see Roy Bennett being persecuted or prosecuted, it's so that he is denied his chance of being part and parcel of this inclusive government and I know as a Party, we'd want to see Roy Bennett sworn in as Deputy Minister of Agriculture.

Gonda: At that time, did you know who was behind your arrest? Who is the person who is pushing this? Even who was pushing your case?

Mutsekwa: It is political but it is not a secret that when I was arrested that time Minister Didymus Mutasa went out and went public on TV and newspapers and celebrated that I'd been incarcerated and started talking about my history etc, etc and that he would do anything to ensure that I remained detained, convicted and hanged. So it's no secret at that time Minister Mutasa was in charge of the President's Office, so he exposed himself and I've no doubt in my mind that he would have instigated that kind of an issue. But again it was a way of trying to incapacitate the Movement for Democratic Change. You know they pick up on your strongest characters and they make sure that they weaken you so that then they think in that process they have weakened the entire Party but unfortunately this Party is too big to be killed or weakened by such incidences.

Gonda: And a final word Minister?

Mutsekwa: The final word Violet is that we are in this situation now in Zimbabwe where because we are going through a process, the constitution making process which is very similar to a campaign for elections, we are bound to be having a lot of disruptions, we are bound to have a lot of disturbances, violence is beginning to creep in and etc, etc. My appeal is that firstly the law enforcement agencies must ensure that they deal decisively with these insurgencies, but the second thing also is that we as parties, we must be responsible enough to ensure that we accept the verdict of the people whenever the elections come - but during the constitution making process it is also important that people are given the free chance to say what they want and this can only happen if we have got an enabling environment political in the country. And also that, South Africa is staging the World Cup, it is incumbent upon ourselves as Zimbabweans to benefit firstly from the visitors that are going to be coming to the region but also importantly that we display a sense of maturity in whatever activities we are going to be doing, but I must also stress that it is the duty of this inclusive government to ensure that we bring freedoms to Zimbabweans and freedoms to Zimbabweans will also include their right to demonstrate, their right to speak publicly about they think not going on well and those freedoms will not be taken away by this government and indeed not by myself as a Minister.

Gonda: Thank you very much Minister Giles Mutsekwa for speaking to us on the programme Hot Seat.

Mutsekwa: Thank you Violet.

Feedback can be sent to violet@swradioafrica.com

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