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Hot Seat with Rejoice Ngwenya and William Bango: Is MDC selling its soul to make GNU work?
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
March 19, 2010

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat230310.htm

Violet Gonda presents her latest Hot Seat programme, where she speaks to William Bango, former spokesperson for MDC President Morgan Tsvangirai, and political analyst Rejoice Ngwenya. They analyse President Jacob Zuma's recent trip to Zimbabwe . Was the South African President successful in his mission to break the political deadlock? Is the MDC selling its soul just to make this inclusive government work? Find out why Ngwenya believes the MDC has accepted a 'junior party mentality,' and is giving too much respect to Zanu-PF, and why Bango believes the MDC has made 'tremendous' in-roads which have reduced Zanu-PF to the status of an opposition party.

Violet Gonda: My guests on the Hot Seat programme are William Bango, a former spokesperson for MDC President Morgan Tsvangirai, and political analyst Rejoice Ngwenya, giving us their analysis of President Zuma's recent trip to Zimbabwe to try and break the political impasse. Let me start with Mr Bango, did the South African President succeed in his mission to break the deadlock that is threatening the fragile coalition government?

Willam Bango: Well the result has to be seen, what happens in the next few days is going to be very useful. It's going to, in our view; put a number of minds to rest. We have spent quite a long time in this country since the GPA was signed. People are very anxious as to why the process has been dragging on, we wonder and this is the view of many Zimbabweans, as to why our leaders continue to negotiate over matters that are enshrined in our constitution.
By the way, Amendment Number 19 of the Constitution incorporates the GPA and the concern, the anxiety and the feeling and fears among the people that we still try to bring in external mediators to look at our Constitution and to discuss matters which should simply be clear and straightforward and allow us to move on with our lives.

Gonda: Right, let me go to Mr Ngwenya, what did we expect from the South African President and in your view, were those expectations met?

Rejoice Ngwenya: Well in principle the biggest error that we've made, we have given Zuma too much credibility in his ability to be an effective mediator. Now we are seeing a perpetuation of these political games which were started by Thabo Mbeki, SADC is also on to it. Zuma comes to Harare, he says a couple of nice things and we are not seeing any deliverables, we keep being told that there are certain deadlines and dates that have to be fulfilled, agreements that have to be fulfilled.

We are being told things that we already know and we are convinced that this is a political game which only one person can benefit which is Robert Mugabe. So the inability of Zuma and SADC to bring a conclusive arrangement to this agreement is cruelly exposing their hypocrisy, Zuma was on holiday and he's gone back to South Africa and it's going to be business as usual and I'm sure that we are going to be in a few days time, up until about the 31st of this month, we are going to know that once again the people of this country have been taken for a ride Violet.

Gonda: President Zuma said that the rival political parties had agreed to a package of measures that will be implemented as per the decision of the SADC Troika in Maputo . Is there any understanding as to what these measures are?

Ngwenya: Well obviously at this stage it's not very clear. This is what we have been saying, when you are a mediator and you have spent two days on a negotiating table, what we expect is for him to be able to lay these things clearly in black and white. E.g. 'We agreed in this round of negotiations that Gono and Tomana are going to be relieved of their duties, we've agreed that licences are going to be issued, we've agreed that the issue of sanctions we have no capacity to handle it'.

But these are the deliverables that we are saying we should see and as far as I am concerned we don't see anything that is visible that we can call a deliverable. So what we know is just a press conference and all the other innuendos and submissions that have been talked about in the past have been regurgitated and it leaves us with a sense of exasperation that perhaps the referee is not as impartial as we thought.

Gonda: What are your thoughts on this Mr Bango? Is there any understanding as to what these leaders have really agreed to, what President Zuma described as a package of measures? What are these?

Bango: I think the MDC is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Here is a person who is unwilling to negotiate, the implementation of a set of agreed positions and the MDC is trying almost every day to see to it that the GPA, the agreement itself, is allowed to sit down. The ordinary person in Cheche, Tamandai, in Dotito and in other places, people are wondering as to why we are delaying implementing what we agreed on so that the nation can move on to other things. Our main problem at the moment and that is the general sentiment countrywide is that the people are saying why should we continue to talk about matters that we thought had been dealt with a long time ago?
Why can't we move on as a nation? If one person, if one signature to that agreement decides to continue breaking the law, to continue disrespecting a clear constitutional provision, to continue disrespecting a position the nation thought was going to take them from one point to another, then perhaps people like Zuma and other mediators should do is to come and find ways of nudging that person just to do what normal habits of citizenship demand of them, that they get on with their work.

So for ordinary people, the continuing discussions over what should be done, what should have been done, what should be planned for the future and it's getting on to them. Zanu-PF and Robert Mugabe are behaving as if they are in the pre-2008 era, they still have a nostalgic view that Zanu- PF is still in power but the fact of the matter remains that there's been a regime change in this country since the signing of that agreement and to get that regime change sit down, to get it recommended, to get it to be seen as the new dispensation is the problem. And one party has decided that they will continue to flout the law, they will continue to disregard norms and standards and what is generally accepted as normal in our own society and many people are baffled as to what these people still continue to talk about.

Gonda: As a person who used to be very close, in terms of you were the spokesperson for the President of the MDC Morgan Tsvangirai, what are your thoughts on what could be happening with the MDC? Why is the MDC allowing this to happen?

Bango: Well all transitions are normally very difficult processes. In the case of Rhodesia , the whole transition began with the Geneva Conference of 1976 and it ended in 1980 - 1979/1980. In South Africa the transition began in earnest with the release of Mandela in February 1990 and it ended four/five years later. All what we are doing, all what the MDC is trying to do is to try to cool down the temperatures so that reason may prevail at the end of the day, so that people can see that there is some benefit at the end of the day. People have had a raw deal for a long time.

They want food on their tables, they want progress over their own conditions, and they want their lives improved. We have a typhoid epidemic coming up now, yesterday we had cholera, we have a drought looming, we have a food emergency in our hands yet we are talking about peripheral issues.

We are talking about trying to erode each other's political brand, Zanu-PF is trying to blame, to erode Morgan Tsvangirai's brand by delaying, wearing down the MDC , wearing down the people, using money to confuse the electorate, trying to develop an apathetic political situation in this country, trying to demobilise everybody, trying to make people lose hope so that at least they could have a flicker, a flicker burning indicating that perhaps Zanu-PF may return to power as a sole Zanu-PF government, which I don't think in the foreseeable future is a distinct possibility.

Gonda: But Mr Bango, some MDC supporters on the ground are feeling betrayed and are tired of what they describe as this talks charade. Now is the MDC selling its soul just to make this inclusive government work?

Ngwenya: Violet, can I also come in there?

Gonda: Yes.

Bango: That's exactly what Zanu-PF is trying to get at. Zanu-PF is trying to demobilise the people. Zanu-PF is trying to use time, money and the people to erode the MDC brand. The party generally is aware of these tricks, the party generally understands this from grassroots structures all over the country, but what is frustrating them is that they want to see a result arrive.

There is a general understanding that in any meaningful transition results rarely arrive early, results always come late, but there must be a clear path which they can demarcate, they can see that slowly we are getting toward an intended destination.

Gonda: Let me go to Mr Ngwenya and then I'll come back to you Mr Bango on this. What are your thoughts on this because villagers we speak to from rural areas such as in Mudzi and in Masvingo they say that they are being beaten up and their livestock stolen and they are saying there is no-one to talk to about this, including the MDC . Now as I asked Mr Bango, what are your thoughts on this? Is the MDC selling its soul just to make this inclusive government work and is turning a blind eye to what is happening on the ground like the violence that is continuing?

Ngwenya: The point I would like to make . . . (interrupted)

Bango: The MDC is not in government at the moment. The MDC is not the only party that is in government. What we have is a marriage, a marriage that is running a transitional arrangement, that is running the country and in that transitional arrangement there is always a clash of vision, there are always conflicting interests, there is always going to be a case of shadow boxers raising their fists in all directions and so forth.The people generally do understand that but while they do understand that unfortunate position they would want to see a definite move towards a possibility of putting that behind them so that they can get on with their lives.

Gonda: Mr Ngwenya can you respond to my question and also to what Mr Bango has just said that the MDC is not in government?

Ngwenya: Well I don't know what he means when he says that the MDC is not in government. The MDC is in government. The problem that we can see here is of a political party that has a junior party mentality. It is a political party that has given too much respect to Robert Mugabe. It is a political party that has got an electoral majority and they don't seem to be getting grips on the situation.

The villagers have got a right to feel that they have been abandoned because the party is not visible. We have not seen the MDC going into the commercial farming areas questioning those war veterans and asking them what they are doing in there. And we want to see MDC assuming a leadership role they were bestowed by the majority of the voters. What is actually clear is that perhaps since 2000, the party has failed to produce alternative political strategies.

We want a Plan B. If the MDC for instance, decided to leave government today, do they have ability to mobilise the masses against the Zanu-PF machinery? Obviously it means that what they are really lacking is that critical ability to be able to galvanise masses, so they use the masses to fulfil their political objectives. Now the MDC is in government so we expect them to take charge.

They are giving Mugabe too much credibility, Mugabe is junior partner and we feel that really perhaps they don't appreciate the element of being the majority party, so we want to see alternative strategies. If this Agreement does not work by the end of this month, what alternative does MDC have? I want Bango to be very clear on that. What alternative does MDC offer to people of Zimbabwe if Zanu- PF continues to play truant in the GPA?

Gonda: Before Mr Bango responds Mr Ngwenya can you just tell us a bit more about what you have just said because some allies of the MDC have described them as hapless strategists. Now is this because their strategy is poorly executed or is inadequately communicated?

Ngwenya: Well basically when you are talking about a strategy execution it will obviously would depend on the quality of the strategists (inaudible) . . . For instance if you look at the way Mugabe stripped certain political powers from MDC ministers, all they did was to protest about it.

Really we want to see more positive action, we want to see more action on the ground. In terms of communicating to the grassroots, they should have a fall-back strategy of going to the grassroots to say our powers that were bestowed upon us by you the electorate have been stripped from us, what do you think we should be doing?
We cannot have strategic decisions only being discussed at MDC level we want to see the grassroots participating and being involved in the execution of that particular strategy. So the assumption that we have as analysts is perhaps MDC does not have Plan B, they don't have a fall-back strategy. This is why Mugabe can afford to sit there and behave like the senior partner and abuse them because there's no alternative strategy.

So you could be right by saying perhaps the weakness is in terms of the communication of the strategy. We want to see the grassroots being involved. We want to see Morgan Tsvangirai and his team, the Arthur Mutambaras of the world getting into the front line of the action, going into the farms, talking to the media to try and entice the media to fight for their right of freedom of expression but we are not seeing that.

We are hearing a lot of diplomatic talk about; 'Mugabe being a good coalition partner, it's a workable Agreement', but we know that the agreement is not workable. It is not right for MDC to make excuses for Mugabe. It is not right. The responsibility of the MDC is to expose Zanu-PF as truant partner in the agreement and therefore we are then able to seek solutions that are backed by critical leverage from the voting masses.

Gonda: Now Mr Bango can you respond to this and also can you explain before you do that - what you meant by 'the MDC is not in government'?

Bango: Well what I meant was that the MDC is not the party that formed this government alone, as a party on its own, even when it won the election on March 29, 2008 , that's what I meant by that because the MDC is not the government as a single party. But to answer the issues that Mr Ngwenya has raised let me make it clear right from the outset that I don't speak for the MDC anymore but what I know is that whenever there is a fight between two protagonists, to simply join in the brawl, to simply join in the melee and start hitting back would confuse the situation even further, when the national sentiment is pointing towards a direction in which a lasting solution could be on the way forward.

To expect the MDC to take off its gloves and say let's meet one on one in the street and let's see who is the most stronger between itself and Zanu-PF, using those kind of Stone Age tactics would not move this nation any further.

The point that I might need to add is that if you conduct an analysis of the people who are spearheading the current chaos, the current mayhem in the country you would actually see that after the GPA was signed, the agreement was signed, Zanu-PF formed a parallel administration, one that is composed of hardliners, you get these elements in the police force, you get these elements in the military, you get these elements in the judiciary, you get these elements in the media who are running their own fields apart from the spirit of inclusivity and their business is a nostalgic business which keeps on drawing them back to the pre-2008 position which makes them feel and think that Robert Mugabe is still thoroughly in charge of Zimbabwe which is far from the truth.

These elements unfortunately are still extremely powerful and they get the blessing often from the top leadership of Zanu-PF itself because Zanu PF itself is seeing that it has lost the plot, their supporters countrywide are totally confused as to what actually is taking place in the party. After ten years of incessant brain washing that Morgan Tsvangirai would never set foot in a government office, they are seeing him today, with the designation of Prime Minister and Zanu-PF is failing to explain this simple fact.

They cannot run the same propaganda mantra that we are now sitting with a vassal of imperialism so the hardliners have taken centre stage in Zanu PF, trying to reassure their confused electorate that the situation has hardly changed, when the reality on the ground is totally different.

Regarding the mobilisation efforts and the whole question of keeping the country wired up from the MDC side, as an official of the MDC I can tell you there's activity all over the country, almost every week. The MDC structures are actually getting stronger by the day. In the strongholds, the previous strongholds of Zanu-PF, the MDC is making inroads every day, Zanu-PF structures have disappeared in most parts of the country.

They are still reliant on remnants from their militia, the remnants from the rogue group of war veterans and some retired soldiers but by and large, the national mood, the national spirit is that change is inevitable and that the reality is that this inclusive government has brought in a huge peace dividend to a previously battered community especially the people in the rural areas who have been held hostage by Zanu-PF for a decade and longer than that.

Gonda: How do you respond to people who say that the MDC keeps changing deadlines and has failed to put pressure on Robert Mugabe and that Zanu-PF is just rolling over them? And some critics even go as far as to say that the MDC is being swallowed up by Zanu-PF? What can you say about that?

Bango: The MDC has made tremendous inroads during the past year while in this government. For the first time, the MDC managed to second its officials to be appointed ambassadors in places where previously it was unthinkable that Robert Mugabe and Zanu-PF could accept that. The MDC has made inroads in Local Government, in a number of areas the MDC has managed to contain the rot that was going on in government.

Even in their day-to-day business in Cabinet and other places the presence of the MDC has had a serious stabilising effect. The last year alone, the last year alone was quite significant in this country and the impact of the change that has taken place in this country can be attributed to the presence of the MDC .

The MDC cannot be expected to overhaul the entire system overnight because it is not solely in government, it is unable to present its policy positions and run away with it because they are currently in this negotiated partnership where the situation unfortunately has to move fairly slowly because the other party is in favour of a failed state status.

Gonda: Let me go to a different issue and this is going back to what President Zuma said when he said that the political parties had agreed to a 'package of measures' that will be implemented as per the decision of the SADC Troika in Maputo. Now we all know that in November last year the parties agreed at this Summit to urge the international community to lift all forms of sanctions on Zimbabwe and also to engage in dialogue about all the outstanding issues in the GPA.

Now we know that Europe and the USA have said to the parties in Zimbabwe that they should implement what they agreed to and then they will consider the issue of removing the targeted sanctions. Now given what Zuma has been told regarding the restrictive measures during his recent trip to the UK , what will be his next step on this? Let me start with Mr Ngwenya.

Ngwenya: Well really the principle is that if the EU and the Americans and the West have already mentioned that they are not going to lift sanctions until the partners have fulfilled their obligations of the Agreement, that's a dead end. In other words, there is no way this Agreement can proceed if the negotiating partners commit themselves to think that they cannot fulfil - so the issue around Mr Zuma is that then he has to focus on things that are deliverable.
There are basic things within the agreement that are within the control of the negotiating parties - freeing the media, ensuring that there is no political intimidation and so on and so forth. And those are the things that the EU is saying - when you guys agreed, these are the things that you agreed to deliver. Now when you talk about sanctions, you then look at the scenario around the continued abuse of human rights in Zimbabwe which are the causative factors.
In other words, the factors that caused the implementation of the sanctions regime are still intact, so it does not make sense for Zuma to make that part of the negotiating deliverable.

So as far as the sanctions are concerned, I'm sure Zuma has to accept and admit as a negotiating partner that he has reached a dead end, then refocus the negotiating partners around issues that are deliverable. My opinion really is perhaps that if Zuma then gets stuck in the mud around the issue of sanctions he is basically playing the same game that Zanu-PF is playing, that any fulfilment of the Agreement is dependent upon the sanctions which I think really is asking for too much.

It's more in fact, of insulting our intelligence because we know that the MDC , they can cry all they want but as long as the scenario around which sanctions were imposed on the Zanu-PF activists remain intact, they are not going to be lifted so perhaps it is the right time to look at other issues that are deliverable.

Gonda: Mr Bango has Zuma reached a dead end on the issue of sanctions or do you think he's telling Robert Mugabe up front to reach a compromise if he wants the targeted sanctions to be removed?

Bango: I think President Zuma is simply being diplomatic. The issue of restrictive measures, the issue of sanctions, political sanctions against rogue States date back to more than 20 years ago. You will recall at the Commonwealth Summit in Harare in 1991, the Harare Declaration came out very clearly on the question of the observance of human rights and how rogue States should be treated by the international community.

That position, the Harare Declaration was reaffirmed at the Millbrook Plan of Action in Australia two years later and the result of that was the action that was taken on Fiji in 1995 when there was a military coup there and similar restrictions were imposed on the civilian/military junta which had taken over power there.

A few years later we saw similar actions being taken on Pakistan and after Pakistan , then Zimbabwe ironically where this declaration emanated from at the beginning, they became a victim of that simply because it was falling back on what it had managed to steer through with colleagues in the Commonwealth of Nations.

The issue of institutional violence is no longer a debatable matter as far as Zimbabwe is concerned. There are lots of cases, documented cases, cases which have never been denied, showing and pointing to the fact that the State itself has been instrumental in violence and the State that has been there was led by certain individuals and certain measures have to be taken in terms of these universal benchmarks, universal forms of sanctions on anybody whose behaviour becomes misplaced.

So to keep on talking about whether sanctions should be removed on 200 individuals and less than a dozen companies which are known to have been helping a rogue state to institutionalise violence is to engage in a sterile and moribund debate. President Zuma is simply being diplomatic, trying to cover needs from both sides.
People know what has gone wrong with this country; people know that you can literally do business with anybody in the world today without any restriction whatsoever.

Phillip Chiyangwa was on television the other day and he was boasting that he can import any car from anywhere in the world, he can enjoy caviar from any capital in the world, he can import his suits, his business suits from anywhere in the world. And Phillip Chiyangwa is no small beer, he is one of the topmost Zanu- PF officials and to keep on running that mantra shows one very clear thing - Zanu-PF has run out of an election message. Zanu-PF no longer knows what to tell its supporters.

They cannot tell people that they don't have the capacity or interest to move away from their feudal way of doing things, to move away from their aristocratic behaviour where they turn their top officials into massive landowners and not farmers.

They do not have any message to the electorate so they are harping on the sanctions issue and of late, they are also talking about the need for empowerment. I chuckled with friends yesterday when we read Gono's interview in one of the local newspapers here and Gono was saying 'this whole business about empowerment is misplaced!' Zanu-PF is now out of its wits; they failed to empower people with their wholesale agrarian reform programme, what makes them think they can empower anybody by taking Lewisham Family Butchers or Donors Drycleaners and think they can run away with it?

So, in fact, these are political statements by a party that is desperate for a political message that probably would resonate with the electorate. Tied to that if you listen to recent Zanu-PF statements, Zanu-PF is speaking as if it is in the opposition and is not part of the GPA.

It is telling the world and Zimbabweans that look at what your government is doing, it's refusing to empower you, 'civil servants - look at what your government is doing, it's not paying you'. 'Ordinary people, look at what your government is doing - it's imposing sanctions'. They are speaking as if they are outside government. They are speaking as if they are in the opposition.

Further to that, if you look at their principles, their position, and their constitutional position they're putting forward, they are saying - 'now we want two terms for a President'. What happened to their saying that ZANU PF would rule forever? Why are they are talking of two terms now when their oft stated position for three decades was that they would rule until donkeys have horns? It means here is a political party that is speaking as if they are in opposition to a particular government.

Gonda: OK. I am running out of time so I'll end with getting a final word from Mr Ngwenya.

Ngwenya: Well my final word really is that I think what we need from MDC Violet is an alternative strategy Plan B. It must be clear now that once the deadline has expired, Morgan Tsvangirai and Arthur Mutambara should take a decisive decision either to stay in there and take charge of the destiny of the people of this nation or they should step out of this coalition government and find another approach to liberating the people of this country. Thank you very much.

Bango: Thank you.

Feedback can be sent to violet@swradioafrica.com

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