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Hot Seat interview with Deputy Prime Minister Arthur Mutambara - Part 2
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
October 16, 2009

Read Part 1

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat191009.htm

Violet Gonda brings you the second part of the Hot Seat interview with Deputy Prime Minister Arthur Mutambara, focusing on the major problems in the unity government, including the re-arrest of the MDC-T's Deputy Minister of Agriculture Roy Bennett. We also find out where Professor Mutambara stands as he appears to flip flop from being Mugabe's biggest supporter and then the next minute his harshest critic.

Violet Gonda: This is the 2nd of a two-part Hot Seat interview with Deputy Prime Minister Arthur Mutambara. Since the interview there have been major problems in the progress of the unity government, with the re-arrest of the MDC-T's Deputy Minister of Agriculture designate, Roy Bennett. So before playing you the second part of the discussion, here is a recent chat I had with Professor Mutambara, about this current crisis in the coalition government.

Arthur Mutambara: This is quite a sad development. The charges against Roy Bennett have no basis at all. They are politically motivated and the refusal by Mugabe to appoint Roy Bennett as Deputy Minister of Agriculture is unacceptable. Why - because every Zimbabwean is innocent unless you're proven guilty. When I was appointed Deputy Prime Minister myself, I was in the Court system. I'm still in the Court system; I'm in the Supreme Court right now. When the Minister of Finance Tendai Biti was appointed minister he was in the Court system being charged with treason. The Justice Minister Patrick Chinamasa was charged and convicted but was never removed from his position as Minister, so there's no precedence in the country where you refuse to appoint a minister because of charges being preferred against them. But more importantly, there's no basis whatsoever for the charges against Roy Bennett. Now what is even more upsetting is the fact that they now indict him and lock him up just to spite all of us.

So we are very angry, we are very disappointed and tomorrow morning we are going to have a meeting between myself, Tsvangirai and Mugabe to try and address these matters. These are the issues I've been referring to in my conversation with you and at every point we have to negotiate and at every point we are fighting and this is one of the reasons why I say that we are now in conflict and we are fighting, but we are going to be able to resolve it, hopefully amicably and effectively.

Gonda: Some sources in the MDC-Tsvangirai, in fact in the Prime Minister's Office said that the MDC will disengage from contact and deliberation with Zanu-PF in the inclusive government until all outstanding issues plaguing the coalition government are resolved and the catalyst was the arrest of Roy Bennett. It is understood that the MDC is not going to pull out of this government and will continue to run its ministries but will disengage from Cabinet and the Council of Ministers and suspend any forums with Zanu-PF. Is this something your party will support?

Mutambara: But I think this is early days; I was in a meeting with the Prime Minister this afternoon, we had consultations and discussions. This is work in progress and I think we haven't finished our consultations so it's premature for us to announce our decision. Even Prime Minister Tsvangirai hasn't announced his position. As I indicated, we are going to have a crisis meeting tomorrow, the President, the Prime Minister and myself are going to sit down and talk about this subject, so I think for now let us wait and see the outcome of our consultations and our discussions. But we are very angry, we are very disappointed but we also want to do considered action where we analyse the effectiveness of our actions. So it's premature for me to outline our response.

Gonda: The Prime Minister's spokesperson, James Maridadi is quoted in the media saying that Mr Tsvangirai had requested an emergency meeting with Robert Mugabe and the Justice minister but all lines of communication were shut and Mugabe was refusing. Do you know anything about this?

Mutambara: This is why I am now intervening, this is why I am now involved and I'm organising, I'm setting up a meeting of the three leaders for tomorrow so this is work in progress but our position is that we must meet as the signatories to the GPA and be able to sit down and discuss this matter before we take our different positions. So this is work in progress and I hope that the three of us will be able to meet tomorrow to consider these actions.

Gonda: Surely, if this impasse continues, how mature are we as people if the country is being held to ransom on the basis of disputes over issues like Gideon Gono, Johannes Tomana and Roy Bennett.

Mutambara: Yes but remember we had a discussion about this and we said that Zimbabweans must realise that they must think about national interest, they must be mature as you are saying, they must reach out to each other, they must think deeper and realise that any of these shenanigans are undermining the progress of our country. We are destroying our own nationhood; we are destroying our own credibility and destroying people's confidence in us. So I hope that we will be able to be mature enough across the board, stop any grandstanding, sit down as mature Zimbabweans and craft a way forward. This is national interest time and Zimbabweans must work together and realise that they will sink or swim together.

Gonda: Coming back to the issue of Roy Bennett, what are your thoughts on this? Do you think it was proper, given the sensitivities around the issue of land for Roy Bennett to be picked as Deputy Agricultural Minister for the MDC?

Mutambara: That is Tsvangirai's prerogative. No one has that prerogative. Mugabe, Mutambara have no business deciding who becomes Deputy Minister of Agriculture. In the Agreement, every leader has the right to suggest whoever they want so there is no space for Mugabe or Mutambara to have a view on who Tsvangirai appoints. That's his prerogative.

Gonda: But Mugabe insists that he will not swear in . . . (interrupted)

Mutambara: Because he is wrong, that's what I say, his understanding is mistaken, and he is wrong by putting this nonsense about charges. At law you are innocent unless proven guilty. There are ministers who were charged and convicted and were never fired. I am in government and yet I'm in the Courts, Biti was appointed when he had treason charges against him. There's no precedence for this action that says be cleared before I appoint you. It's baseless.

Gonda: So when you are with Robert Mugabe, what do you tell him and what does he say when you tell him these issues?

Mutambara: Yeh but we had that discussion last time and I explained to you that we are very clear in explaining that every leader in this government is a product of the GPA. He is President of the country because of the GPA. Without the GPA, without the inclusive government he is not President of Zimbabwe. If he understands that, that defines our bargaining power.

Gonda: But it appears that he is not understanding that because he continues to . . . (interrupted)

Mutambara: So why don't we talk about that a bit later, after we've had our conversation tomorrow. It's said that we continue to have these problems, these shenanigans on the side of Zanu. We wish Zanu could understand sooner than later that they need this inclusive government as much as we do. I hope sooner than later all Zimbabweans will understand the efficacy and importance of this inclusive government insofar as it's a platform to create conditions for free and fair elections so that next time around our elections can produce a government, not this arranged marriage, this dysfunctional and undemocratic government we have in Zimbabwe.

Gonda: A day after the interview was conducted, Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai announced his party's 'disengagement' from ZANU PF, who he described as dishonest, unreliable and unrepentant. The Prime Minister said while the MDC will remain in government, they are going to disengage from Zanu PF, and in particular from Cabinet and the Council of Ministers, until there is the full resolution of all outstanding issues and the complete implementation of the GPA. Is this the end of the inclusive government as we know it? We will bring you more on this particular issue next week.

Now we will hear the rest of the interview with Professor Mutambara that was conducted last week.

The Deputy Prime Minister recently told the BBC's HardTalk programme that the travel ban on ZANU PF leaders like Patrick Chinamasa and Emmerson Mnangagwa is a ban on Morgan Tsvangirai. How logical is that position?

Mutambara: Ah, I'm surprised you picked that one. Let's start with the whole Mutambara position on sanctions. The starting point on sanctions is that charity begins at home. Why were sanctions imposed in the first place? We must answer that question as Zimbabweans. Secondly, are there things that we are doing in our country which we control, which are tantamount to imposing sanctions on ourselves? Let us address these sanctions we are imposing upon ourselves. What are those sanctions? The failure to implement the GPA - that is a sanction against Zimbabwe. The material we are seeing in the media, the problems we are finding in the media, the issues on our farms, the issues in our courts - that is a type of sanction against the people of Zimbabwe. The biggest imposer of sanctions on Zimbabweans are the people of Zimbabwe, in particular their own government of which I'm Deputy Prime Minister. So I am saying the first port of call on sanctions is the removal of the internal sanctions we are imposing upon our people.

Part two - the external sanctions - when you talk about removing the external sanctions you must make sure you are credible. How credible are you when you say remove sanctions on Zimbabwe when you yourself are imposing sanctions on the people of Zimbabwe. That is my discourse. So after I have said I'm guilty as charged, as Mutambara I'm imposing sanctions on Zimbabwe, I'm going to work on removing the sanctions I'm imposing upon my people then I'm now qualified to say as I try to do the right thing please help me help myself. Please give me a fighting chance.

It is only within this context that I then say to America, to Britain, to Europe please help Zimbabwe help itself by removing the sanctions you've imposed upon companies and organisations in the country, by removing the targeted sanctions you have imposed on individuals. But remember it is only after we have accepted our own culpability in terms of the creation of conditions leading to sanctions and secondly, accepted our responsibility in terms of imposing sanctions today. We are imposing sanctions today. So if we own up and are prepared to remove our own sanctions then we have the capability and legitimacy to ask others to remove their sanctions.

Now let me talk about the element you have raised. What I'm saying is that after we have done the right thing or are trying to do the right thing, let us understand the meaning of these sanctions. We are trying to fix the economy, we are trying to help our people, and the sanctions were put in place to support Morgan Tsvangirai. They were put in place to support Mutambara. They were put in place to support the democratic forces. The democratic forces are now in government. Biti is trying to fix the economy, we are trying to run the country so the sanctions are now working against us as the drivers of economic recovery in our country, as the drivers of change in our country. Another analogy: the Zanu-PF ministers are now members of Team Tsvangirai. Tsvangirai is Prime Minister of the entire government including Zanu-PF ministers - so when you put impediments and sanctions on those individual members effectively you are putting those measures against the captain of the team. It doesn't make sense if you love the captain.

Gonda: But Professor . . .

Mutambara: Let me finish this, give me a second, I'm finishing now. If you love the captain, if you want the captain to succeed you can't justify putting sanctions against his players. But remember please, this discourse, this argument by Mutambara to say America and Europe must remove sanctions is different from Mugabe's position. I am completely different from Mugabe because I accept that we are imposing sanctions on our own people. I say the first thing to do, the first port of call is home, charity begins at home, and if you do not address the sanctions you are imposing upon yourself, you have no credibility whatsoever when you say sanctions must go. So the Mutambara position is very different from the Mugabe position.

Gonda: OK, but I just wanted to go back to two points that you made, one about the sanctions on the individuals and then also the sanctions that you want the western countries to remove, the sanctions that are imposed on the people of Zimbabwe the country. I spoke to one of your colleagues, Gorden Moyo and he says there are no sanctions that affect the country.

Mutambara: Yah, that talk must stop and this is what damages our standing as well. We must be credible people. Look at ZEDERA, read ZEDERA, you can read it on your own time - those are sanctions against companies in our country, those are sanctions against organisations in our country, those are sanctions that are affecting the lives of our people. So I think we must be honourable in the opposition as well, this notion of restrictive measures huh? That's a nonsensical phrase. Sanctions are sanctions are sanctions! And we must be credible people and be able to own up and say there are sanctions imposed upon our people, they are hurting our people, there are sanctions imposed upon individuals but now they don't make sense because those individuals are now team mates, they are now colleagues.

Gonda: How did those . . .

Mutambara: Let me emphasise this argument. You can't be half pregnant Violet. Either you are pregnant or you are not pregnant. Either you work with Mugabe or you are not. Once we got into this government Violet, we got pregnant, not half pregnant.

Gonda: But still Professor, how do those sanctions actually hurt the economy? And also on the individuals, you say the west must remove sanctions on Zanu-PF individuals, should these individuals who are responsible for the murder of scores of people and the displacement of tens of thousands be forgiven just like that?

Mutambara: No you see it is a tricky one, should De Klerk have been forgiven by Mandela? The white South Africans did more damage on South Africa than Mugabe has done on the country. We have forgiven the Brits for slavery and colonialism. If Zanu and Mugabe do the right thing by the country we can work with them. Huh? And we can find a way if you now talk about it, restorative justice, he's now talking about victim based justice, we can discuss all those things but don't raise the bar to an extent that Mugabe can't be forgiven when you can forgive De Klerk. Huh?

Gonda: But surely Professor, surely this new Zimbabwe will not work if there's not some kind of repentance?

Mutambara: That's why I emphasise the issue of restorative justice, victim based justice, we can discuss the content of our healing programme . . .

Gonda: Yes but are these people in Zanu-PF repentant? Have they shown any sorrow, remorse since the formation of the unity government?

Mutambara: I think this is work in progress, this is work in progress. What I was emphasising was a very practical thing. If your reservations are that strong, then we should not be in this government. If we are saying President Mugabe, Minister Mnangagwa, Minister Chinamasa, these are now colleagues, we are in the same government. It's put up or shut up. If you feel that these people are unrepentant, they must go to The Hague, get out of this government, there is no point in being in this government. I am saying that by signing that Agreement, by going in this Agreement, it was a major compromise. We became fully pregnant, not half pregnant which means you give up on something so we've got to work together but however I share your concern about whether there is repentance and whether there is progress. That is why I was emphasising the internal dimension, but let's not overplay the Mugabe dimension as if Zimbabweans can't forgive each other and work together, they can do that. We just need to work harder on it and make sure that we work. But let me just emphasise that I'm not on the same page with Mugabe on these sanctions. My view is very different. I start by attacking myself, I start by saying my government is imposing sanctions on my people, I must do something about that. Only after I have done that am I credible in asking for others to help me help myself and give me a fighting chance.

Gonda: Now Professor . . .

Mutambara: But when you talk about sanctions, when you have ZEDERA, when you have targeted sanctions against individuals, it also affects your ability to borrow money, it damages the brand of the country so the economic activities in the country are affected by this whole image of sanctions. And there are companies, Zimbabwean companies that are listed in ZEDERA. ZEDERA is about sanctions, yah? Let us, as the opposition, let us stop this child's play of saying restrictive measures, there are no sanctions. When we do that we lose our credibility, we become as bad as the other side.

Gonda: Now let's talk about you for a minute here.

Mutambara: Sure.

Gonda: You've confused many Zimbabweans especially since joining the unity government because one minute you are seen as being Robert Mugabe's biggest supporter and then the next minute his harshest critic. Where do you really stand?

Mutambara: Yah, I think because our people are slow thinkers, they don't apply their minds. I've been very consistent, I've been very clear from the beginning about what I stand for. My struggle in Zimbabwe is about 22 years old. I don't know many people who were fighting Mugabe 22 years ago, yah? Twenty years ago this time I was actually in prison, huh? This is 1989, October, October 8 I was inside Mugabe's jails. I don't know how many Zimbabweans were in jail in 1989, yah? So my record of opposing what is wrong in our country is very clear. Morgan Tsvangirai when he was arrested for the first time, go and check your records, he was arrested because he wrote a letter to the Herald defending me and Munyaradzi Gwisai. That is Morgan Tsvangirai's first arrest, yah? Go and check your records - arrested on the 6th of October 1989 - that is Mutambara. I'm the foundation of this struggle. I've been in this fight before many people were but I don't use that against anyone.

So consistency has been my second name. What you need to do is that I am not beholden to Tsvangirai, I am not beholden to Mugabe, I am beholden to Zimbabwe and I'm beholden to what makes sense in our country. I'm beholden to the national interest. And this, if you look through my work for the past 22 years, you'll see that consistency in pursuit of the national interest. Right now I am working very well with the Prime Minister, no problems, we are working very well, I'm his Deputy and we are building the country but I also reserve the right to take positions that are in the national interest and where there have been disagreements, we do, you know, explain them. We are working very well with the Prime Minister, we are working very well to try to make sure that we deliver the change that Zimbabweans are looking for. It's a hard struggle, it was never going to be easy, it was never going to be a walk in the park. The struggle continues.

Gonda: Can you respond to Dr Simba Makoni's stab . . .

Mutambara: Who is Simba Makoni?

Gonda: Can I finish? Can you respond to his stab at your party calling you MDC-PF?

Mutambara: (laughs) Well you know, I'm a national leader, I'm above petty talk so I'll let him speak that language but I respect Dr Makoni, he was a great Finance Minister, a Secretary to SADC, you know I backed him in the last elections and so he is a Zimbabwean patriot. I rise above the fray, I'm a soldier for justice and as a national leader I don't involve myself in petty squabbles.

Gonda: But why do you think there is this misconception out there that you support Mugabe?

Mutambara: Why don't you review what I've said tonight. Do I support Mugabe?

Gonda: Well I'm asking . . . (interrupted)

Mutambara: I rest my case, thank you very much, I rest my case.

Gonda: But Professor, observers doubt your credibility . . . (interrupted)

Mutambara: Observers who are dull and incoherent.

Gonda: I hadn't finished, because observers doubt your credibility as a leader especially since you were not elected by the people so how will you ever become the people's choice?

Mutambara: Well just watch this space, just watch this space. By the way, there's no leader who was elected to their position in the government. The President is a product of the GPA, the Prime Minister is a product of the GPA, and the Deputy Prime Minister is a product of the GPA. We are all creatures of negotiations. That is not democracy Violet. What we want to do is to make sure next time around we go to an election, those that win the election are able to form an elected legitimate government. That's why we are very keen to create conditions in the country for free and fair elections. But however . . . (interrupted)

Gonda: But I'm not understanding when you say that someone like Morgan Tsvangirai was not elected. Wasn't he elected by his people and then also in the elections last year . . . (interrupted)

Mutambara: No, no, no you are getting technical here. There were no elections for Prime Minister. And by the way . . . (interrupted)

Gonda: No, no but there were elections, there were Presidential elections last year and he actually won the first round of that election and that's why . . . (interrupted)

Mutambara: Let me go on, you must remember that there are three political parties in this arrangement and there were negotiations and the negotiations decided that Mr Mugabe would be the President, and that Mr Tsvangirai would be the Prime Minister and yours truly would be Deputy Prime Minister. I did not impose myself. So go and ask the negotiators, go and ask vaTsvangirai, go and ask vaMugabe how I came around to become Deputy Prime Minister. But let me emphasise this, we are working together in the national interest and we are playing our role and if you are informed by the way, you will realise that there will be no Agreement between Zanu-PF and MDC-T if my party wasn't involved. We are the critical players in bringing MDC-T and Zanu together. We are the critical glue that fashioned that Agreement. Without Welshman Ncube and Priscilla Misihairambwi Mushonga, there would be no Agreement in Zimbabwe. Right now in Cabinet we are critical players as ministers in this government. So you underestimate our role at your own peril and also as a function of your ignorance. We are the creators of the GPA in Zimbabwe. My party is the creator of that GPA. Go and check with Mbeki, and go and check with the negotiators.

Gonda: So do you still think that Morgan Tsvangirai is a political midget?

Mutambara: (laughs) This is politics now. I don't know where that is coming from. He is the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe, we are working together very well, I have no complaints and so we are determined to work together in the national interest. So I will not dignify discussions about things that tend to divide us, we will not dignify discussions around the differences. We want to amplify areas of agreement. There are many areas of agreement and we are working very well together, thank you very much.

Gonda: Yes but Professor, you made that comment that's why I was asking. You said . . .

Mutambara: Yah and I'm saying that those are the things that divide us, right? And why is that of interest to you? Why don't you just marvel that Tsvangirai and Mutambara are working together in the inclusive government and are driving the Zimbabwe agenda effectively. That should be your song. Go and celebrate that and forget about the other stuff that is divisive.

Gonda: No, but that's why we need to clear the air because these are some of the things you have said before and it will be nice to know if you still believe in those things . . .

Mutambara: (laughs)There's no . . .

Gonda: . . . that's why I was asking.

Mutambara: There's no air to be cleared Violet. We are working very well with the Prime Minister. We are working under very difficult circumstances but we are trying our best and we hope that we shall overcome. It's not easy and by the way, all the questions you are asking us are very critical and very valid but we knew that going into this government is going to be tough but working together as three political parties we will be able to save our country.

Gonda: And of course, one of your members, Job Sikhala said your party has lost direction under your leadership. What's your response to that?

Mutambara: (chuckles) Again, I think, why don't you stay on course and concentrate on the national agenda? We've nothing against Sikhala, I'm sure he, we wish him well in his political career but I have no interest in discussing irrelevant matters, I'm on the national agenda and the national interest but I think we are democrats. We are also believers in discipline, we are also believers in team spirit, we are also a believer in collective and shared values and so we respect the differences with Sikhala. We wish him well and we don't have anything against him.

Gonda: And what is the latest on your VP, your Vice President Gibson Sibanda's position as Minister as by law he should not be a Minister.

Mutambara: Yah, the three political parties and three principals in particular are working out an arrangement to resolve that matter so his work continues without any problems but we will regularise his appointment so that it is within the constitutional framework of our country. But he is doing splendid work with Sekai Holland and John Nkomo so what is important is the content of the agenda, what is important is the content of the work and Sibanda is on top of his work and is being productive. That's what we care about for now.

Gonda: How do you respond to people who say how can the Vice President of the party not have a Cabinet position, a secured Cabinet position while juniors have been given Cabinet positions?

Mutambara: I think that's a discussion for the party, that's a discussion for the leadership of the party and when they make decisions they don't have to explain their decisions to non-members. So members of the party are clear on how we made our decisions and Mr Sibanda himself is very clear on how we made our decisions and so we have no problems, we are marching forward.

Gonda: And a final word.

Mutambara: I'm appealing to the Zimbabwean in Mugabe, I'm appealing to the Zimbabwean in Tsvangirai, I'm appealing to the Zimbabwean in Mutambara and the Zimbabwean in all of us to say let us work together in the short run, let us suspend partisan interest in the short run and make sure that we do the right thing for our country. In particular let us work together to create conditions for free and fair elections, so that come next election, elected people are able to form a legitimate government, not this arrangement which is undemocratic which is running Zimbabwe. The future belongs to a proper democracy where an election is able to deliver a government.

Gonda: Deputy Prime Minister Arthur Mutambara speaking to us on the programme Hot Seat. Thank you very much.

Mutambara: Thank you very much for this opportunity to share with your listeners.

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