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Hot Seat interview with Home Affairs Minister Giles Mutsekwa
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
March 20, 2009

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat310309.htm

Violet Gonda: Giles Mutsekwa the MDC Minister of Home Affairs is my guest on the programme Hot Seat. How are you Mr Mutsekwa?

Giles Mutsekwa: I am well Violet thank you very much.

Gonda: You have inherited one of the most controversial ministries in the country. Can you first of all tell us what the function of your ministry is, beyond its role in the police force?

Mutsekwa: The Ministry of Home Affairs in Zimbabwe encompasses departments apart from the police - also the Registrar General's Office whose functions are to ensure that Zimbabweans have documents right from birth until they die. Also under the Ministry of Home Affairs is the Department of Immigration which ensures that people come into Zimbabwe correctly and also makes sure that those who do not come in correctly are then checked and eventually deported. The ministry is also in charge of National Monuments as well. So those are the departments that come under the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Gonda: Having held this office for over a month now what is your opinion of the current state of the ministry and what are the challenges of this portfolio?

Mutsekwa: Firstly as you correctly said I have been in the ministry for about a month now. There are a lot of challenges involving the ministry. The first one which in my opinion is major is that of trying to finance the operations of the ministry itself. We need some budgetary assistance to be able to operate efficiently in the ministry. The second challenge that I see and face is that of trying to transform the thinking, the behaviour and indeed the face of the entire workers of the ministry and that includes the police force itself. I know that is going to take a little bit of some time but as you know we are now under this inclusive government and people who are watching us from afar - both regionally and internationally - would want to judge the success or failure of the inclusive government through my ministry because we are in charge of insuring that there is law and there is also order in the country.

Gonda: I would like to talk to you some more about the issue of the police force and law and order but if I can ask you before that - you are co-sharing this ministry with Zanu-PF's Kembo Mohadi. How feasible has it been so far for you?

Mutsekwa: Surprisingly Violet we have had no problems at all in co-sharing this ministry with my colleague Kembo Mohadi. While we belong to two political parties we have pleasantly found out that we can co-exist without any problems at all. In actual fact I think the major issue at stake there was the fact that both of us were ready to cooperate because we knew what our mandates were and what we must achieve in terms of trying to ensure that the inclusive government works and survives.

Gonda: What are your responsibilities and what are his?

Mutsekwa: Well the two of us are responsible for running the ministry so there is no division of responsibilities between us. It would be the worst way of managing the ministry if we were to share responsibilities between the two of us. Because you can imagine if you gave one some kind of responsibility which does not apply to the other what it would mean is that the next turn when you are responsible for the other department, that you were not before, you'd simply want to change policies and we would continue to go in circles. So what we are doing is we are managing that ministry together and ensuring that every policy formulation is agreed between the two of us.

Gonda: And you talked about the challenges in the police force and issues to do with law and order. Can you elaborate on this and give us your perspective of the current security situation?

Mutsekwa: Well the history of the police force has been that for the past 12 to 30 years the police force of Zimbabwe has unfortunately been tainted because of the Zanu-PF government that has tended to mistaken the police force for a political instrument. And through no fault of the police they have tended to behave as Zanu-PF direct. So it was a very unfortunate development and I must emphasise here that it was not the fault of the police at all but just one political party which tended to use State apparatus for its own benefits. So that is one challenge but that is where the emphasis is where we have to transform the behaviour. I am pleased to tell you that I am getting enough cooperation and I am happy about that process.

Gonda: How exactly are you dealing with this because the reports we are getting on the ground - it appears not much has changed in terms of how the police force has been conducting its business. Corruption is still rife especially along roadblocks in parts of the country and also in terms of just obeying court orders the police have not been doing this. So what can you say about this?

Mutsekwa: Well yes you are right there have been instances, especially before I joined the ministry, where the police were accused of disobeying court orders and, yes, there are clearly examples to that effect. But as I said the attitude has changed because I have had occasions to speak to the commanders of the police force and the response that I am getting from them is quite positive.

It's not their fault Violet, these people have been forced to behave like this in the past and it was purely because of the administration that existed then - who mistook the police, the state apparatus for being something that belonged to the party.

Transformation naturally takes quite some time but what is pleasing is the cooperation that I am getting from them.

Gonda: So why is there still violence in areas like Buhera in Manicaland province - your home area - where several MDC activists have been arrested? What is triggering this?

Mutsekwa: What really triggered violence in that area was that there was a lot of misbehaviour from supporters of Zanu-PF in the first place. In Buhera, for instance, what actually triggered it was that one Zanu-PF supporter went around and burnt down villages belonging to MDC supporters and when that got to the ears of MDC supporters naturally they wanted to revenge and this is what happened. So that is what triggered it.

And how I am going around that particular area is that we have said we are aware that there are grievances emanating from the June 2008 run-off presidential elections. A lot of wrongs were done during that time and indeed people were tortured during that time.

We are saying to the community that firstly they should not take the law into their own hands. Secondly, that they must use the traditional leadership in their locality who will then help in ensuring that there is peace and order. The traditional leadership is important in this instance because they know who wronged who. And as you are aware, Violet, our traditional leaders in Zimbabwe have got the authority and respect of the communities that they lead. And we have discouraged the police from going in and trying to interfere with those issues.

However as you are aware in the police force there is also a department that deals with public relationships. I have directed that particular department to get involved with together with the traditional leadership to ensure that people come together and talk to each other.

Gonda: But Mr Mutsekwa if I can go back to the example you have given calling on traditional leaders to resolve disputes using traditional means - if I can give a current example; in Buhera 13 MDC supporters were actually arrested and appeared in court and although they were granted bail they are facing extortion charges which were based on the allegations that they tried to reclaim their properties and livestock stolen by Zanu-PF supporters during the elections as you have mentioned. But the alleged Zanu-PF culprits were not arrested at that time and it has emerged that the two groups had agreed with the help of village headmen to settle the disputes. But I was talking to one of the lawyers for the defence team - Trust Maanda - and he said even the two headmen in Buhera who had actually tried to settle this dispute were also arrested and this is something that is happening right now. So when you say you have resolved this how realistic is that when this problem is continuing?

Mutsekwa: Violet it is going to be a long process I admit. Some of these things are developments that take place on the ground which I may not know. I am aware that because of distance we might not be exactly briefed about what exactly is happening on the ground, and I am responding to the issue where you have said that the lawyers who are representing the accused are complaining about the one-sidedness of handling these issues. That was an issue I was not aware of but I will investigate and I will ensure that everyone who was involved - be it Zanu-PF or MDC - must face the wrath of the law.

Gonda: What about the issue of the farm invasions?

Mutsekwa: That is another twist Violet but the issue of farm invasions in Zimbabwe comes from different dimensions. The first one is the authority of land resettlement does not come under my ministry - that would be the Minister of Lands, Lands Resettlement who is Dr Herbert Murerwa. He would be the person who would know who is settled where and under which authority. The second thing is that I am briefed correctly that there are certain papers or letters that are flying around Zimbabwe purporting that they are originating from the Ministry of Lands and people who are in possession of these offer letters are the actual people who are causing mayhem in terms of the farming community.

We had a meeting between my ministry and the Ministry of Lands so that we clarify the origin of these letters, under whose authority and the authenticity of these letters. So I am hoping that this meeting between the ministries will take place soon. After that when we have established what exactly is taking place then we will be able to instruct the police to maintain law and order in the farming community.

Gonda: What about reports we are receiving from the Commercial Farmers Union saying they are being terrorised on the farms and that even some of the people who are invading the farms illegally are senior Zanu-PF officials like the President of the Senate, Edna Madzongwe. So surely it's your ministry that looks at these issues of law and order?

Mutsekwa: I want to inform you that I personally met in my office the President of the Commercial Farmers Union yesterday. We had very long discussions in terms of what is happening in the farming community and I am very satisfied that he also appreciated my position after my meeting with him.

We are not certain who owns what in Zimbabwe at the moment and this is the reason why I told you that what we have heard and collected is that there are offer letters that are circulating in the farming community purporting to be letters of authority for people to take over land and certain commercial farms.

We are not so sure whether these offer letters are sincere or authentic. So what we are doing is we are holding meetings between my ministry and the Ministry of Lands and Resettlement. So that we establish once and for all who is supposed to be where and what is the cut off date etc, etc. Once that has been established is that anybody carrying a piece of paper and asks a farmer to leave the land because he's got some kind of authority will naturally be disciplined by the police. But at the moment the trouble is we do not know whose letter or whose authority is authorising these letters. And this is where our problem is as Home Affairs.

Gonda: But why is it the police have not been arresting the people who are actually going ahead and invading these farms - while the ministry looks into this situation. Shouldn't there be a call to say stop all the invasions, stop the illegal activities and actually threaten to arrest the perpetrators of violence if this continues? We have been talking to several farmers who are saying they are being harassed and most of them are terrified and have gone into hiding?

Mutsekwa: Violet you can only (instruct) the police to arrest people if you have established that what they are terming as certificates of occupation is either true or false. Right now as I said, there is this debate that is going on and it would be honestly unfair for the police just to jump in and arrest people when they are not certain as to what is going on.

You see there are two angles to this thing. The first thing is it could be true - and I am not saying that is a fact - that these people are carrying letters that they have authority to occupy those farms and in that case it means the police have no right to be arresting those people. But also what we know for sure is that these letters also could be false documents and this is what we want to establish. We can only establish that from the ministry that is concerned. Once that is established that means now we have a story not only from the commercial farmer who is on the land but also from the ministry and thereafter I can assure you we will take action.

Gonda: If I can just go back to the other issue we were talking about - about MDC members reclaiming their properties, the property stolen during the election period - we have seen this happen in Buhera, we have seen this happening in Nyanga and even in places like Mbare. So the question is how do you make peace with people who actually stole your property, who murdered your relatives during that period? And are there any calls being made to actually arrest the perpetrators.

Mutsekwa: The first thing you've got to understand, Violet, in regards to this inclusive government is that our ultimate aim is to ensure that there is peace and stability in the country. So that is one priority area for this inclusive government. It is not just a question of picking up people and arresting them. The thing is that we do understand that there has been past injustices but it cannot be free for all. The other issue you need to also understand is that yes we in the Home Affairs Ministry do appreciate that these injustices did take place but it is naturally going to take us some time once we have investigated to find out what is taking place.

You must also remember Violet that apart from ourselves as a ministry that is in charge of law and order in the country the inclusive government has also appointed three Ministers of State and the purpose of appointing these people is so that they help my ministry to establish what is going on before we go out and arrest people.

So, yes, those that are committing crime I can assure you they will be arrested. But we want to establish first and establish with a view of ensuring that there is peace and stability in the country - it obviously is going to be a complicated issue. There are people who have been wronged, there are people who have been maimed, murdered, there are people whose livestock has been taken from them and they can see their livestock with a next door villager. I know that is the situation at the moment but what we are saying is the law will catch up with the offenders. All we want to do is to ensure that the process does not bring mayhem in the country.

Gonda: It was actually reported that Police Commissioner Augustine Chihuri ordered that murder investigations emanating from last year's elections be stopped. If this is true what is your opinion of that?

Mutsekwa: Look Violet the Police Commissioner General is a civil servant and is subservient to the government of this country and I am in government and the Ministry of Home Affairs is part of the government arm.

Our responsibility as a government is to give instructions to civil servants so whether he said that or not, I am telling you as a policymaker is that we will institute investigations for anybody who did anything wrong and we will make sure that the law takes it's course. But as I said we want to do it in a manner where we maintain peace and stability. That's all I am telling you. But whatever statements were made during 2008 - some of which were political that will be history.

Gonda: What about reports claiming that army generals have refused to salute the Prime Minister Mr. Tsvangirai, what are your thoughts on this especially as a former army person yourself?

Mutsekwa: These statements were made during the period leading to elections and yes you are very correct that statements of that nature were made by army generals in Zimbabwe . But the situation has changed, the environment has changed and I have met army generals myself in person since I was appointed Minister of Home Affairs. I have met the police chiefs, the police commissioner and I have not had problems with them saluting or respecting me. As I say certain statements were made and the statements were made during that time made purely because that was the environment then and it has since chanced. We have got an inclusive government in place and generals in the army do not salute a person, they salute the office that person holds. So there is no choice.

Gonda: So can you help our listeners and our readers understand why they failed to attend the swearing in ceremony of the Prime Minister and also why they failed to salute the Prime Minister, recently, at the burial of general Vitalise Zvinavashe at the heroes' acre. There was a lot of speculation that the army generals had done it again and snubbed Morgan Tsvangirai. Was that the case?

Mutsekwa: Some of it is mere, mere speculation Violet I can tell you that. Firstly I attended the burial of the late General Zvinavashe myself and you would have observed that if you watched the news and I did not see anything to that effect at all. But the question that you asked me earlier on about why the generals did not attend - did you say the installation or the burial of Mrs Tsvangirai?

Gonda: The installation, when he was sworn in as Prime Minister. There were reports saying the army generals had refused to attend the swearing in ceremony.

Mutsekwa: Yes, we also received those reports and it is true that they were not there but you must look at it this way, Violet, that there is no constitutional obligation that binds the generals to be there when the Prime Minister is being sworn in. Therefore, because it is like that you cannot legally actually ask them why they were not there. But whatever reasons they might have those are their own personal reasons and have nothing to do with the functions and the duties of the State.

Gonda: You know if I may go back to the issues of the police force - does the police force need reform on issues to do with constitutional awareness and human rights? And what steps are you going to take to depoliticise the security apparatus?

Mutsekwa: Violet, the security forces need training and retraining because of the changes of the circumstances in Zimbabwe where we have got an inclusive government. This inclusive government in Zimbabwe is a new phenomenon and nobody has had experiences of how this inclusive government ever worked anywhere. So yes because there are changes in the circumstances everybody, not only the police, not only the security forces - even the civil service needs training and retraining because they have to be reoriented to the new political order. So this does not only apply to the police, to the army etc, etc. It applies to all the civil servants in Zimbabwe. They must be realigned and obviously get used to the fact that we have a new political dispensation in Zimbabwe.

Gonda: So how do you plan to realistically deal with this issue because you were talking about financial constraints. So in terms of training them how are you going to do that?

Mutsekwa: You see what we have got to do first as Zimbabwe is to do the first thing that is within our capabilities to do and that is we must change the attitude of the entire civil service first. The fact of the matter is there is nothing we can do without outside assistance. We need to be aided financially; we need to be aided in all corners of our administration. So yes our economy alone won't be able to effect those changes so we have to have some outside aid, there is no doubt about that.

Gonda: But on the issue of aid the Americans and the British have said they will only start pumping in money when they see some sort of meaningful change. But with what has been happening on the ground especially to do with human rights, do you see things changing any time soon.

Mutsekwa: Look the British and the Americans who probably made those statements are correct. But the fact of the matter is that they also know that some of these changes are a process, not an event. So naturally yes they are watching at what the inclusive government is doing and I know for sure that my ministry would be the face of this inclusive government. Everybody else who wants to come in and help this government would have to look at how we discharge or manage our justice system and the police, for example, are very crucial. And this is why I have told you in the first instance that the first thing that we need to do is to change attitudes and once attitudes have been changed they will see that there are people in Zimbabwe who are ready to embrace each other and indeed take the nation forward.

So that is the first thing and the British and Americans as you stated naturally would want to watch in that regard and once they are convinced that we are doing the correct thing they will come to our aid. I have no doubt about that.

Gonda: Now let's talk a bit about the issue of political detainees. Now I understand that there are three political detainees left in Harare and that's Ghandi Mudzingwa, Chris Dhlamini and the photo journalist Shadreck Manyere. Now there are reports that you were actually summoned by JOMIC together with Minister Kembo Mohadi that you were told to help resolve this issue. What were you tasked to do by JOMIC and what powers do you have in terms of ensuring that the remaining political detainees are freed?

Mutsekwa: The detainees that were in question were detained before this inclusive government was formed. Minister Mohadi and myself were summoned to appear before JOMIC and they asked us if we knew anything about these detainees, and I want to be honest with you at that time we did not know that there were detainees who were under police custody, unfortunately we did not know at all and we said so to the JOMIC.

However the two of us gave clear instructions to the police to release them and I want to tell you that those three now have since been released and are free.

Gonda: Yes you are talking about the detainees who were missing and the three were released recently but what about the detainees who were actually in police custody - Chris Dhlamini, Ghandi Mudzingwa and Shadreck Manyere, they are still in custody?

Mutsekwa: Violet, once people have been arrested by the police and they've appeared in court my ministry has got no role to play thereafter because everything now depends on the delivery of the justice system and Honourable Chinamasa is responsible for that. We are only responsible when the person has been arrested and is under the custody of the police, that's when we get involved. But you are talking about characters like Chris Dhlamini and Ghandi Mudzingwa - yes I am aware about them but as I said they are already in the process of the justice system and the minister responsible should be able to answer that question.

Gonda: What would you say are the priorities of the new government right now?

Mutsekwa: The priorities are to ensure that we are able to feed our people in Zimbabwe, that we are able to resuscitate the economy and therefore are able to support the activities of this government, that we must also have a new people driven constitution that will lead this nation to free and fair election. And obviously to ensure that the infrastructure in the country is repaired and get to the stage where it will be able to service the majority of the people in Zimbabwe. Most importantly, to ensure that there is freedom and democracy in Zimbabwe.

Gonda: You talked a bit about the Registrar General's Office, that it is one of the departments in your ministry. But what are the challenges associated with this office which your party has said has been the vote rigging mechanism for Zanu-PF?

Mutsekwa: Well, the first challenge is it's a department that has been ill-funded and therefore it's constrained in terms of its operations. So that's the most outstanding issue. Also the Registrar General's Office was the department that was responsible for compiling and publishing the voter's roll in Zimbabwe. That area has been a sticky area especially for the Movement for Democratic Change because we have always been convinced that this is were the rigging first took place, so that is another challenge.

But since several amendments of the constitution the issue of conducting elections now in Zimbabwe has since been transferred to a new body and I think that is one of the things that we recommended to be done. But the other issue also is that the Registrar General's Office at the moment produces documents that are relevant and demanded by the citizens of Zimbabwe. Those documents at the moment are too high in terms of cost and we want to try and revise so that Zimbabweans can access them.

Gonda: What will happen to the controversial Registrar General Tobaiwa Mudede? The MDC has been complaining about his conduct from the very beginning, is he going to remain in this position?

Mutsekwa: Look Violet, we in the MDC have been complaining not necessary about specific characters but about the specific offices. We have no problem at all with a person like Tobaiwa Mudede. We have no problem with particular people but we had a problem with the system. So we have made modifications and changes in these departments. So whoever occupies those offices is immaterial to us. We were not against a particular personality and ours was not about personalities but was about the functions of that particular office. So the issue of whether Tobaiwa Mudede remains Registrar General or not is neither here nor there. I am happy to see him continue. I have no problem with him as a person for as long as obviously he abides by the new political environment.

Gonda: So if the MDC had no problem with the actual people in these offices, why then is the MDC concerned about the Reserve Bank Governor Gideon Gono and the Attorney General Johannes Tomana, because the MDC has specifically named these two officials and said they are not happy with those appointments, so what's the difference here?

Mutsekwa: The MDC is worried about the re-appointment of the Reserve Bank Governor of Zimbabwe not the person himself. The MDC is also concerned about the appointment of the Attorney General not the person himself; it is the process that the MDC is complaining about. As you are aware those two - and I am talking about the Attorney General and the Reserve Bank Governor - are according to the GPA supposed to be appointed after consultation and agreement with the Prime Minister. That did not happen. So our complain is not necessarily about a particular person, it's about the manner in which they were allowed to assume or re-assume their offices

Gonda: I am afraid I am running out of time, so a final word Mr Mutsekwa.

Mutsekwa: Yes, I do, Violet. Firstly I think it is necessary for me to re-emphasise the fact that the failure or success of the inclusive government of Zimbabwe depends on the support that we get regionally and internationally, so that's the first one. The second thing is that the nation and the international community must be assured that will do everything in Zimbabwe to transform the civil servants, including the police and military, to ensure that they abide by the new political order. And lastly, it is incumbent upon the civil servants in Zimbabwe to cooperate with the government because everybody will benefit once this inclusive government succeeds.

Gonda: Mr Mutsekwa I have to end here but I hope we'll be able to get you back at a later stage to find out the progress in the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Mutsekwa: OK fine, thank you, Violet.

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