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Hot Seat transcript: Interview with Roy Bennett
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
March 13, 2009

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat170309.htm

Violet Gonda: Roy Bennett, the MDC National Treasurer and the Deputy Ministry of Agriculture designate is my guest on the programme Hot Seat. I spoke with him after his release on Thursday after spending a month in prison in spite of two High Court rulings ordering his release.

Roy Bennett: Kanjani, Violet.

Gonda: VaPachedu veduwe.

Bennett: Eeeee vakomana zvakaoma.

Gonda: Munotamba here?

Bennett: Ndiripo hangu hameno imi?

Gonda: Tiri vapenyu. How are you feeling?

Bennett: Alright thanks Violet. Obviously pleased to be out of there but at the same time very, very humbled, in awe and basically also just very sad of the conditions in there and the state of affairs here in Zimbabwe.

Gonda: Will talk a bit more about the conditions in prison but first how does it feel to be free?

Bennett: Violet I can't really say I am free. I am under very stringent bail conditions. I am in a country where the rule of law is questionable. There is no separation of powers and there is interference of the judiciary from the highest level. So you don't feel safe at all. I could be re-arrested any minute. You have no idea what's in store for you, day to day.

Gonda: Can you tell us about the bail conditions. I know last week the High Court had said you could pay US$2000?

Bennett: Yes, I now have had to pay US$5000 bail. I have to report three times a week - Monday, Wednesday and Friday to the CID Law and Order in Harare . I have had to surrender my passport. I have had to surrender title deeds. My son took me to the airport - to Charles Prince airport - he used a friend of ours' car and they have since been visited. It's a lady, she is a widow. She was visited and picked up by the CID Law and Order and questioned. She was accused of harbouring a criminal, wanting to know where else I stay in Harare , who else I know. The other guys who were with me at the airport they have also been picked up and questioned. So the fear and intimidation continues and frankly who would want to see me or have me in their house if tomorrow they are going to be followed up and victimised by the Law and Order people in Harare .

Gonda: What about the charges - what do you make of those? You have . . .

Bennett: They are absolutely ludicrous. There is absolutely no substance. The charge is contravening Section 10 of the Public Order and Security Act (POSA) - which means that I was in possession of arms of war without authorisation from the Minister. Now linked to that is the fact that they are saying I am the person who funded Mike Hitschmann to purchase weapons. But you just have to look at the weapons in that were in his possession.

Mike Hitschmann was a registered arms dealer. He was a member of the police and now of the police reserve. He has on record many certificates where he has delivered arms to the armoury in Mutare from farmers who were leaving the country - they left their arms with him. He was originally charged with treason but that was all thrown out. He was then charged and convicted under exactly the same charge that I have been charged with and in there he put in an affidavit saying where he had obtained those weapons and the fact that those weapons had been left with him by farmers who were too scared to hand them in to the police. And he would wait until there was enough and deliver them to the police station. And that was all on record as having done this before.

So the whole thing is absolutely ludicrous and a figment of their imagination. I hardly new Mike Hitschmann - I had seen him maybe twice or three times before he was arrested and those times have been when I delivered speeches either at the legion club or the hall in Mutare. So you know it's ridiculous, Violet.

Gonda: Some MDC activists including officials like Giles Mutsekwa were also slapped with the same charges but had the charges dismissed. So how is it different? (Interrupted)

Bennett: Exactly. It's ridiculous. They first charged me with treason, then they charged me under the Immigration Act and that was dismissed in court and it looked as if they were just going until they could find something to stick me with - and eventually they came up with this charge.

Gonda: So what was the content of your interrogation in custody?

Bennett: Well basically I had no interrogation at all. All I was offered to do was give a 'warned and cautioned' statement which I said I know nothing about those allegations. But it would appear Violet, and it is very obvious that there are certain individuals inside this government who have not taken on the spirit of moving forward - who are still filled with hatred and vengeance and basically have personal vendettas against me. I will put it down to these sorts of people.

You know for our nation to move forward we need forgiveness, we need love and we need to rebuild the country to move on. We don't build anything with hatred and vengeance.

Gonda: So who do you think was behind your arrest?

Bennett: I have no idea Violet but it is very, very obvious that it is to do with the Justice Department. It is to do with those who have control over the Attorney General's office and those who have control over the prisons. So it is definitely the Ministry of Justice - who have the people that have been victimising me. So I would think there is none other than Patrick Chinamasa, who still has a vendetta against me over the issue in Parliament. The fact that I served eight months in prison is not enough. He is a man that is filled with hatred. The man is filled with vengeance. I have forgiven him, I forgave him a long time ago and I have asked for his forgiveness. So I pray that one day he will repent and get on his knees before he meets his maker because the sort of things he does and is involved in destroy a country - they don't build a country.

Gonda: What about the MDC itself do you think it did enough to get you released?

Bennett: I am sure the MDC has done everything in its power to get me released. You know it's not about the MDC , it's not about Patrick Chinamasa, it's not about me Violet - it's about the nation of Zimbabwe that is suffering under the most extreme conditions. When I speak to you about the conditions in prison you will understand what is happening in our nation. And basically it's a case of everybody should be joining together in the spirit of forgiveness and the spirit of healing to move our nation forward to build a better life for the people that are suffering.

Gonda: You mentioned that it could be people like Patrick Chinamasa or some individuals in ZANU PF . . .

Bennett: Well I understand that Paradzai Zimondi who is the Head of the Prisons himself ordered the people in the region not to release me the first time the High Court granted me bail - he ordered them to come and take those bail papers away. So these are some of the individuals who have personal vendettas, whether it's to protect themselves from whatever they have been involved in or whether they don't want to move forward in the government of unity. Whether they don't want to forget and forgive I don't know but definitely I know that from what happened at the prison is that he was the one who phoned and ordered that my (release) papers be taken away.

Gonda: You came back early this year, in early February actually, from South Africa where you were living in exile, to take up this position as the MDC Deputy Minister of Agriculture - so with what's been going on are you still going to take up that appointment?

Bennett: I have committed myself to serve the people that elected me into office and whatever I have to do to satisfy their demands I will do. Our President Morgan Tsvangirai has appointed me as the Deputy Minister of Agriculture and therefore I will accept that position. I will do it to the best of my ability to be able to move things forward in order that we can feed ourselves again and become a nation that can be proud of its agricultural background.

Gonda: Can you comment on the rumours that there were attempts to actually trade your freedom for a general pardon and amnesty for abuses of the past 28 years?

Bennett: I am not sure Violet. I did hear this but again I was in prison so I wasn't privy to it but I understood that was one of the conditions but I haven't spoken to anyone directly to confirm this.

Gonda: And speaking of conditions, can you describe the conditions in prison?

Bennett: It's an absolute humanitarian disaster and I would liken it to pictures that I have seen from the concentration camps. There is absolutely lack of food, lack of medical attention, lack of cleanliness - a lack of everything. There is absolutely nothing in the prisons. Prisoners get one meal a day - a piece of sadza the size of your hand and water with salt in it. Those prisoners who do not have relatives or people outside supporting them are in worse conditions - or look like those emaciated, skeletal bodies we saw during the holocaust. Basically it is a human rights tragedy and a serious abuse of human rights.

Gonda: How many prisoners or inmates died while you were in jail?

Bennett: Whilst I was in jail five died in the four weeks that I was there. The bodies don't get collected. They sit in the laundry, there is no mortuary. Most of them sit there for four days - one sat for five days. The (inaudible) exploded. They had to put them in plastic bags. I cannot even begin to describe the situation and it is not the prison people's fault. They are trying their best. In fact they are being paid nothing yet they are trying their best to keep things running with absolutely no support from government and absolutely no resources. There is nothing Violet. People don't even get toilet paper, people don't get soap. So people are in there eating one piece of sadza and water a day and nothing else. That is all there is.

The medication from the medical side is very little and very sparse so the whole thing is just an absolute tragedy and disaster.

Gonda: So will you be able to use your position as a minister to campaign to improve the living conditions of prisoners?

Bennett: Obviously once I am able to explain to my colleagues these conditions and bring it to their attention - I am sure there are other prisoners who are being released who can confirm everything that I have said because I am sure Mutare Remand Prison is not an exception. I am sure throughout the country this is the situation. So yes I will do everything in my power to be able to make those responsible for these conditions understand the conditions and therefore do something about trying to alleviate those conditions - and bring back what is needed under the constitution, what is needed under the Prison Act, what is needed under the Prisons Standing Rules and Orders - whereby each prisoner should receive x, y & z.

But it needs the intervention of some international tribunal - the Red Cross, the United Nations need to do something- people are dying. It's a total genocide that is taking place in the prisons.

Gonda: And while you were in prison I don't know if you heard the tragic news that Amai Susan Tsvangirai passed away after a car crash that actually injured the Prime Minister.

Bennett: Yes I did. I just felt terribly saddened and terribly sorry and I just hope that it was a genuine accident and that there was nothing sinister about it. I have no actual figures but judging from the history of political figures dying from road accidents the immediate thought that comes to your mind is that there is something wrong. You know I just feel terribly, terribly sad. It's such a tragedy and certainly for a man who has such a weight on his shoulders to lose his wife at this stage I think it's absolutely tragic. What can I say? No words can express the feelings he has. All I can say is in my capacity I am totally behind him and will give him my full support and solidarity.

Gonda: And there has been an outpouring of support countrywide and throughout the rest of the world - and also from ZANU PF with Robert Mugabe actually calling for peace and an end to violence. Now given your experience is a robust public effort required to foster national healing and reconciliation?

Bennett: Most definitely Violet. It's not even an effort; it's a genuine sincere will that is needed. It is the will of forgiveness; it's the will of throwing away vengeance. It's a will of believing that you are above the law that you are entitled because you were a war veteran and you fought for Zimbabwe so you rule the country, nobody dare questions you - anybody who does then death with him. That is the spirit that has to be removed and there has to be a spirit brought in that the country of Zimbabwe belongs to the people of Zimbabwe . Respect their will, give them good governance, and give them decency and human rights.

Gonda: Let's go back a little - because many people don't know what exactly happened on the day you were arrested on the 13th of February. Can you briefly tell us how you were arrested?

Bennett: Sure Violet. Basically what happened was that when we realised that the Deputy Ministers were only going to be sworn in the following week - obviously the Saturday was Valentines Day and Monday the 16th was my 52nd birthday. So when I was talking to Heather (wife), she said I should come and spend the weekend. And obviously I wanted to spend the weekend with the family.

So there had been a group of people that had come from South Africa to attend the inauguration of the Prime Minister's rally at Glamis Stadium. They had a spare seat in a chartered plane so they offered the seat to me. My son took me to Charles Prince airport to drop me off. There was a bit of a problem with the plane so they were delayed and eventually we got in. I did my immigration, my passport went, I spoke to the immigration guys and we sat around there for a good hour waiting for the plane to be sorted out. When it was sorted we got on and the plane started to leave when the tower turned the plane back and then I realised there was a problem. I got off the plane to go and see what the problem was and CID Law and Order were waiting to arrest me. I asked them why they were arresting me and they said that I would be told in Marondera; from there I went to Goromonzi. At Goromonzi they showed me the warrant for my arrest - for treason - the guys who followed me told me that I was taken to Goromonzi. From there they moved me to Mutare Central.

Gonda: Were you ever mistreated?

Bennett: No, I wasn't.

Gonda: You spent eight months in jail for pushing the Justice Minister Patrick Chinamasa in parliament and that was in 2004 and now you were arrested again a few years later - and on the day of the swearing in of senior Ministers in the new government. Why do you think there is such an enormous determination to keep you behind bars?

Bennett: Violet I think there are certain elements in ZANU PF that has never moved forward. They are still harbouring hatred and vengeance and also fear of what they have done in the past 29 years. And obviously see me as a scapegoat because they are severely racial. They hated the fact that a white person could have the support of Zimbabweans. Like I have always said I have never seen the difference between our colours. I am a Zimbabwean and I have always given my best to anybody who is Zimbabwean and never worried about the colour.

So you don't know Violet, but basically there are people within ZANU PF who are trying to make this thing fail at all cost and basically wanted to use me as a tool to either make the MDC walk away from the deal or to use me as a tool to bargain certain positions with.

Gonda: So do you think your appointment as the Deputy Minister of Agriculture was to spite ZANU PF, considering that you are white? And that your appointment could have been read as spiting the regime that chased most white commercial farmers, including yourself, from their farms?

Bennett: Violet I think more than anything my appointment was by the Prime Minister who assessed his candidates for government and placed people with the most experience and the ability to deliver in the positions he believed they would deliver and I think that is the reason why I was placed where I was placed. I don't think it had anything to do with the fact that I am white or to spite anybody. I think it's got a lot to do with trying to rebuild a nation that has been completely shattered and destroyed by years of hate, vengeance and maliciousness and basically that is what people have to overcome. And it is in that spirit that I believe I was appointed and I think it is in that spirit that I will work at that position.

Gonda: You know some people have been asking why did you go back to Zimbabwe knowing that you had a case hanging around your neck?

Bennett: There was never any case. It was always trumped up stuff and I was never fearful because I had not done anything wrong. But in view of the Global Political Agreement, in view of the assurances I was given by the South African government and SADC that we were moving forward on this thing I came home to take up my rightful position in my home - under a period whereby we were moving forward with goodwill and unity to deliver on our nation. So those were the reasons I went home. So at no time was I ever thought there was a case that could be brought against me because I had not done anything wrong.

Gonda: So you were actually given assurances by the South African government?

Bennett: I was yes.

Gonda: Who in the government?

Bennett: Well senior members there and I am not at liberty to name. Very, very senior members within the South African government.

Gonda: So do you think they did enough to secure your release?

Bennett: You are dealing with despots Violet and I honestly do believe that everybody concerned played a part in getting me released. But when you are dealing with people that believe they have the sole right to Zimbabwe . They are war veterans and they believe it is their total right to rule Zimbabwe how they see fit - unanswerable or unquestioned by anybody. And people that will go to any lengths to remain in power, to destroy the country, and to destroy anybody around the country who opposes them. They are not going to listen to anybody and there is no amount of pressure that can be brought to bear on despots. Despots have thrown all caution to the wind and will do anything. I do think they have tried and I think my colleagues in the MDC tried very hard and one hopes that there are elements now that are beginning to see that we need to have an open heart and reconciliatory nature in moving this thing forward.

Gonda: Earlier on you talked about the appalling conditions in prison and you said there is a genocide taking place there. Can you compare your previous experience to this one and is there a difference?

Bennett: There is a huge difference Violet. A huge, huge difference. The conditions before were bad as far as the toilets were concerned, as far as the blankets, lice and everything else was concerned. But at least then - when I was in prison - people were getting three meals a day. They were getting a cup of porridge in the morning and a cup of tea. They were getting soap issued once a week. They were getting fruit every weekend. So they were getting breakfast, lunch and supper. They were getting meat once a month and the relish was edible. But now you have one meal a day that is half the ration of sadza that was being given the last time with salted water. You have absolutely no soap being issued, you have no fruit coming in, and you have nothing else.

So when I say it's genocide it's definitely a genocide because anybody that is going into prison for any sustained length of time and does not have family who have the means to support them and come and visit them in prison and bring them food those people are going to die - because the diet that is there nobody can live on. And there are walking skeletons in that Mutare Remand Prison that are complete proof; and whilst I was there five people died in the most emaciated conditions you could ever wish for, where they had become unconscious, defecating in their blankets and eventually died from the state of the food they were receiving in prison.

Gonda: When you say its genocide do you think it's deliberate and is there something that the government can actually do about this?

Bennett: Well obviously they can do plenty about this Violet and that is by opening their hearts and begin to have the goodwill to rebuild the country. Why is the country in the state that it is in? Why has it been reduced to such levels where you have the Minister of Justice who hasn't got the means to be able to deliver any form of budget to the prisons yet they continue to arrest people, they continue to overcrowd the prisons and they can't feed them? So that has to be genocide.

Surely when you can't feed someone in detention and they have no access to be able to get any food you are killing them. So surely you would stop arresting or declare an amnesty and release people or do something to save life. But it continues. Everyday there were about five, six and sometimes 12 more people coming into the prisons and no one being released because none of the guys who were on remand were going to the magistrates' court, because the prison didn't have a vehicle. And for a prison that should have had 160 inmates you have 360 people. So it is just a total, total mess that could be avoided by decisions to stop arresting people or releasing people on bail so that they can get out and eat while waiting for their trial.

Gonda: So given what has happened to you is it safe for other activists and personalities to return to Zimbabwe at this time?

Bennett: You know Violet you cannot hide from these people forever because the more you hide from them the more you give them the power of fear and the more aggressive they become. So I firmly believe that the only way to challenge a bully is to stand up to him and take it to the limits. They must do whatever they want to do. If they are going to kill me or whatever they want to do they must do it. I have done nothing wrong. All I have ever done is stand up for people who have elected me into a position, stand up for what I believe on, and stand up for what is right and try to hold my integrity through this whole crisis.

If that means I will be incarcerated again, killed, whatever so be it Violet. These things come to an end. These sorts of dictators and the sort of people filled with hate and vengeance thank God are very few in Zimbabwe and they are isolating themselves every single day. And the population is becoming more and more angry at being held at ransom by a few people who believe it is their sole right to rule Zimbabwe unquestionably.

Gonda: You have been talking about forgiveness so do you think the same should be applied to perpetrators of gross human rights violations?

Bennett: Most definitely not. Yes you forgive people but there has to be repentance from the people you are forgiving and there has to be justice. Forgiveness, justice and repentance all go hand in glove. Perpetrators of violence, people who have committed murder, acts of rape, acts of arson, and acts of theft against other political victims sponsored by the State or the opposition against ZANU PF - everybody has to be brought to justice in order to have national healing. You will never have a national healing unless you have justice. So yes I can forgive somebody but that person then has to face the justice system and go through the process of either being convicted or acquitted as a result of their actions.

When I say forgiveness, to heal a country and for us as Zimbabweans to move forward we have to in our own hearts forgive those who have perpetrated acts against us personally. Because unless we do that we build up hatred and vengeance in ourselves and start recycling all over again - where we start now applying the very principles that have been applied to us in order to get even with the people that did it to us. And that's very wrong.

We need to forgive those who have been used by a regime to commit these acts against us and then the issue of justice taking its course needs to happen whereby there can be no impunity. The courts, the rule of law has to be totally re-established, the police have to operate without fear or favour and the courts have to operate independently with a separation of powers - rather than the interference and fear that is put into the magistrates, the clerks of courts and the prosecutors by people that threaten them with their lives or imprisonment.

Gonda: While you were in prison Robert Mugabe actually swore in all the Ministers into the new inclusive government. And you are the only Minister left to be sworn in. You have already said you will take up the position of Agriculture Minister, so do you know when you will be sworn in?

Bennett: I understand and I was with the President (Tsvangirai) yesterday in Buhera and he basically said to me that the governors need to be sworn in so when the governors are sworn in I will be sworn in together with them.

Gonda: And you will be sworn in by Robert Mugabe?

Bennett: Yes. Ya.

Gonda: How do you feel about that?

Bennett: I feel very desperately sorry for the man Violet. I pray for him and I have forgiven him and I have no problem - maybe to look him in the eye and shake his hands and say to him that I have forgiven him, that I sincerely hope that we can move this country forward in the best interest of everybody, might have a good effect.

Gonda: Do you think he will have a problem swearing you in?

Bennett: That's his problem. You know I sincerely hope not and I hope he has the same spirit that all of us have to try and move this thing forward.

Gonda: And I don't know how much you have been briefed about what's been happening on the farms while you were in prison. Many farms were invaded actually while you were in prison and the courts have ruled that the SADC ruling on protected farms is not binding. So first of all what is your view on the current invasions, especially as you are the Deputy Minister of Agriculture designate?

Bennett: Violet I am sure that everything that is happening now is illegal and I am sure it is something that is again a process whereby people are trying to grab what they can while they can and with impunity. But again these issues will be revisited, they will be dealt with in accordance with the law and basically the whole process will be sorted out. We have to get back to the rule of law. We have to get back to respecting SADC rulings and judgements and whether we like it or not I honestly believe that will happen.

Gonda: Some people say just this pairing up with a person like yourself who is highly disliked in ZANU PF - and you will be the Deputy Minister of Agriculture - a white commercial farmer for that matter - how are you going to do it? What sort of plans do you have to turn it around? Is it a priority to resuscitate farming now and how easy will it be, considering that it has been decimated?

Bennett: I think it's a serious challenge ahead of us Violet but I don't think it's an impossible challenge. I think like anything it's your spirit of what's in your heart in moving these processes forward. And like I have said before I will enter into the position with the total clear and open heart to make agriculture productive again and it is possible to do that. It is possible to sit down with people and work a way through everything that has happened - nothing is impossible and it's the will and the perseverance and genuine goodwill, the good heart that you have that can make these things work. And I honestly believe that it is possible and that we will eventually get there.

Gonda: Have you had a chance to speak to the Minister of Agriculture?

Bennett: I haven't. No unfortunately I haven't.

Gonda: When you returned to Zimbabwe , it is said that you visited your old farm in Chimanimani - Charleswood Estate. Given an opportunity would you want it back, would you want to return to the farm?

Bennett: Firstly that is irresponsible reporting and totally incorrect that I went to Charleswood farm. That is absolute nonsense. I never went anywhere near Charleswood farm. Secondly yes I would move back on to my farm tomorrow. That farm was taken from me through political victimisation. It's been totally destroyed, there is nothing happening there and in the interest of moving agriculture forward and in the interest of unity I have a right as a member of the government to property that I own. It's got nothing to do with me being white. It's got nothing to do with me being a commercial farmer. I am a Zimbabwean who has been politically victimised of something that he owns. I am sure there will be a way to work through this and yes I will go back onto my farm and I will rebuild it and I will move forward in the interest of the community of Chimanimani and in the interest of doing what I do best and that is farming.

Gonda: VaBennett perhaps I can end here by saying we hope to speak with you at a later date when you have settled in since you have just come out of prison and I hope we can chat some more on the crisis in the agricultural sector.

Bennett: With pleasure Violet, anytime. Obviously I still need to get my feet on the ground and understand where we are going and then with pleasure. Any time.

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