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Transcript of 'Hot Seat' with MDC President Morgan Tsvangirai
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
December 15, 2008

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat151208.htm

Violet Gonda: Mr Morgan Tsvangirai, the leader of the MDC and Prime Minister designate is my guest on the programme Hot Seat. Welcome on the programme Mr Tsvangirai.

Morgan Tsvangirai: Thank you very much

VG: Now let's start with what happened on Thursday, Robert Mugabe, the man you have pledged to form a unity government with, actually lashed out on Thursday and called you a prostitute when he was addressing mourners at the burial of Elliot Manyika and he said, I quote: "Today you are in Senegal, tomorrow you are in that country, ndochii ichocho? (What is that?) Chihure ichocho (that is prostitution)". Now Mr Tsvangirai, are you cheating on Mr Mugabe?

MT: Well first of all I think that my response to those kind of remarks is that people must actually feel sorry for a man who has lost his mind. It is indecent, un-African, it shows you the kind of man - no wonder why people are sceptical about his commitment to co-habitation, co-sharing the power. It really demonstrates the extent to which the man has lost any sense of decency, any sense of African culture, in front of women, children and men.

VG: So with statements like that Mr Tsvangirai, do you think you can work with a man like that?

MT: Well you must understand that when we signed the power sharing agreement on the 15 September we were very hopeful that this relationship would consummate into some workable solution. Now, it would appear that the intention was never about power sharing it was about co-habitation on the part of the man and indecent comments demonstrates his exasperation and his frustration and what I would call, lack of options on his part. So if you ask me a question - can you work with such a man? Obviously it is difficult to have a relationship, a workable relationship with such a man.

VG: We've been getting more and more feedback from people in Zimbabwe who are concerned that the MDC is not visible and that they are not hearing from their leader, why is that and where are you?

MT: Well that accusation has no basis. Two weeks ago I was the first one to call for the humanitarian attention, the potential humanitarian catastrophe we were facing in Zimbabwe. The question of where I am is immaterial, the question is what are we doing to raise the humanitarian crisis, to bring to the attention of the world the humanitarian crisis and to mobilise international opinion about the crisis in Zimbabwe. The international crisis has focused on the Zimbabwe crisis because of our intervention and our diplomatic effort. But the question of my individual presence is immaterial.

VG: Do you not think it is imperative for the people to know where their leader is, they voted for you and so, you don't think they deserve to know where you are, are you in exile?

MT: Well you know Violet, the question we hear every time I go out - the people say where is the leader? And sometimes it is very frustrating to answer that question because it may be a question being asked by my own detractors. Our own structures, our own leadership knows where I am and what I am doing, it is part of our programme.

VG: But what this does, if you are not open to the people, a lot of speculation then starts creeping in. For example it is reported that the entire MDC leadership is in hiding so is this true and is this the reason you are still out of the country?

MT: No the reason why I am out of the country is I left the country openly and I left the country on a diplomatic mission and the reason why I have not been in is because the government has denied me a passport. I don't have travel documents as I speak and I am waiting for my passport to be processed so that I can go back. But I am not going to go back because people just want to see my presence. We have to go back because of work we must do internally, we have work we must do externally.

VG: But Mr Tsvangirai you have been fighting for a new passport for several months now and Mugabe has not even budged, even when you wanted to go to attend the SADC summit in Swaziland and he still didn't give you that passport. What makes you think he will give it to you now and also is there a law to stop you from going back home even without a passport?

MT: How do I go without travel documents? How do you cross the border without a travel document? You know that you need travel document. My ETD has expired whilst I was out. I cannot travel on an expired ETD. Who's going to let you on a plane with an expired ETD?

VG: So what hap . . . (interrupted)

MT: Anyway, let me just explain this, isn't that a demonstration of bad faith and insincerity. If Mugabe does not demonstrate to give me a passport, and refuses to give me a passport, how does he entrust me as Prime Minister designate with the fortunes of the whole country?

VG: So what happens then if he doesn't give you a passport, then you just stay out of the country forever?

MT: Well that's the responsibility of SADC leaders and all the leaders who have guaranteed this agreement and they have to ensure that I have the passport.

VG: So far, what are the SADC leaders saying, the leaders that you have been talking to?

MT: Well Violet, the thing is that people are dying and we can't concentrate on a passport. It is a personal issue, I am doing everything in my power to ensure that we get the travel documents and the leaders know that, they have discussed the issue and hopefully they will bring some sense to Mugabe to release my passport.

VG: But Mr Tsvangirai, you have made yourself available to lead the people of Zimbabwe as they seek to liberate themselves, so how would you respond to people who say or who expect you to be home in Zimbabwe, especially now with people who are enduring the suffering from this regime.

MT: Well you see this is becoming an exasperating debate. I have a responsibility to lead the people. I am not the one responsible for the crisis in Zimbabwe . The fact that we have been out there mobilising international opinion on the focus on the humanitarian crisis is in itself giving leadership to the crisis that the people are facing.

VG: I'm sorry you are getting exasperated about this but I am asking the questions that we are receiving from our listeners, your supporters and they want the answers, and if we can go to the issue of the abductions, we have seen at least 22 people who have been abducted so far and their whereabouts still remain unknown and these include the Zimbabwe Peace Project director, Jestina Mukoko and Ghandi Mudzingwa, your former personal assistant and a two year old baby. So shouldn't you be saying right now, no more negotiations, no more talks until all these people are released?

MT: Well again Violet, I think that you are jumping the gun. This is exactly what we have been telling our negotiators, that we cannot on the one hand be negotiating whilst people are being abducted. You cannot be negotiating with me having no travel document, this is a sign of bad faith. But let me just go back to the question of abductions - the person who is responsible for upholding the rule of law is Mugabe and Zanu-PF. The person who is responsible for enforcing the rule of law is Robert Mugabe and his institution. So if anyone disappears in Zimbabwe the fate of those people certainly cannot be shared, that burden of responsibility cannot be shared with us. We make Mugabe and his regime and his people accountable for the fate of those people, and we have stated that clearly.

VG: So where does that leave you and the talks? Why are you still negotiating with the regime that continues to abduct your people, that continues to brutalise your people?

MT: This is a recent development. We are just as disgusted about the ongoing abductions as you are and what we are saying is that the abductions have to stop. We have represented to President Motlanthe who is Chairman of SADC; we have made all the necessary representations to ensure that these abductions stop and that you cannot continue to have negotiations while these people's fate and lives are being under threat. For what purpose?

VG: We have seen many leaders in Europe and America speaking out against the regime and calling for Mugabe's ouster but except for a few leaders in Africa, namely the Kenyan Prime Minister Raila Odinga, there's really not been much movement supporting calls for military intervention from African countries. First of all, what is your take on the calls for military intervention?

MT: Well as a party, we have never pursued the military option. We have always been committed to the democratic option. Mugabe has violated all the democratic norms in the country, we have continued to fight for democratic change, we have never considered military option as an option available for any democratic change in the country. But of course these are people who are expressing this at this time as if there are no options. One of the things that you have to understand is that the AU and the SADC are the guarantors to this peace deal, this Global Political Agreement. They should make sure that they have sufficient leverage to ensure that Mugabe observes that Global Political Agreement. So this question of military option is not something that we can determine on behalf of the world.

VG: So you are out of the country right now and you have been meeting regional leaders, African leaders and world leaders at large, so can you explain what form of external intervention you want for Zimbabwe and what form it should take?

MT: Well the form is a peaceful intervention, the form is peaceful pressure, the form is peaceful leverage which the AU and SADC should exert and I can't determine how they should exert it. All I will say is that they have the responsibility of exerting that pressure and that they should use their collective strength, their collective wisdom to ensure that that leverage is exercised. They cannot wait for the international community, the Europeans and the Americans to intervene while they are sitting there and watching. It is their responsibility. They have said that they are guaranteeing this deal and they should ensure that this deal is consummated.

VG: But Mr Tsvangirai, you really seem to want this deal. Why, when you know that you cannot trust Mugabe, when you have heard what Mugabe had to say about you and you know what he has been doing to your people? Why is this deal so important? Do you have an alternative to the deal?

MT: Well the thing is that, we regarded a negotiated settlement as part of our resolution in March as a congress. We believed that to soft land the crisis the Zimbabwean people were facing we needed a negotiated settlement and that's the basis of this deal. We need a transition, we need a new constitution that's the road map we defined as a congress, as a party and that's what we are following through and that's why this deal represents one step in that road map.

VG: So how do you respond to critics who say that part of the problem right now is in deciding whether the deal is worth it or not, has been a result of personal interests in your party where some officials already see themselves as Ministers such that they are prepared to sacrifice the greater good on the altar for Mercs and bodyguards and this is why some people in your party are pushing for this deal?

MT: We are not pushing for this in order to have positions. We are not going to go into this deal, into implementing this deal, we have not implemented the deal, we have agreed to the framework of the deal. The problem is arising out of the implementation because of lack of sincerity on the part of Zanu-PF. Now the deal, there is nothing wrong with the deal. What is wrong is the ability of this deal to be implemented because of the problems. If we wanted position we would have said at the time of the signing of that deal, let's go into government, but we have said that until certain positions are achieved. There is no way that we can go there because we cannot have responsibility for the mess without the necessary authority. So it is at the implementation stage where we are having problems, and potential impasse as a result of that. It is not that people want to be cabinet ministers and all that. That's why there is no government

VG: What are these problems, because I spoke with Arthur Mutambara, Professor Arthur Mutambara and he said there was only one remaining issue and that was over the Home Affairs Ministry?

MT: No that's not the issue. If it was about the Home Affairs ministry, why are people negotiating beyond just that issue? You see, they are too critical. I think we should all appreciate the fact that we are all running at cross purposes. The issue here is that there are two fundamental problems regarding the implementation - that is the equitable power sharing between Zanu-PF and MDC. Secondly it is about ensuring that those that are going to discharge responsibility have the necessary authority to make the necessary decisions. Or else you are creating conditions for a dysfunctional transitional government. I mean, can you imagine problems where you are even disagreeing on which ministry goes there, what will happen when we actually take fundamental decisions on policy? So those things have to be ironed out before any form of government can be seen, can actually be formed. So people, whether Professor Mutambara thinks that it is only about Home Affairs, then that is a narrow concept. Why are we discussing about 19th Amendment? Why are we discussing about national security deal if the only problem we have is about a ministry? It is a narrow and myopic view of the whole contestation around power sharing.

VG: The former South African president, Thabo Mbeki who's the facilitator also said that you had agreed to the co-sharing of the Home Affairs ministry and that you've been changing your mind, you've flip-flopped, what can you say about this?

MT: Well, there's no truth to that. An agreement is an agreement when it is signed. Where have I signed that I want co-ministry? If you say that in the discussion, if you take discussions as conclusions, then it is your fault! These people are searching for options and they're putting up various permutations on how to solve a problem, and you take that as you have suggested - so therefore you should be bound by it when I have not signed anything. Where have I signed co-ministering during negotiations?

VG: So why did you sign that power sharing agreement in the first place if it wasn't proper?

MT: Well the thing is that, on the day of the signing of that agreement, we brought to the attention of Thabo Mbeki the two issues still outstanding that it is nigh improper to go into a signing ceremony without sorting out the power, the issues of ministry portfolios and the issues of governors and the issues of national security. He assured us, and this is confirmed by his public statement at that signing ceremony. Of course we now realise on hindsight that he was not interested in the welfare of Zimbabwe . What he was interested in is an agreement signed in front of all those heads of state who had now gathered in Harare and his interest was just to get that thing signed and not about conclusion and having an equitable conclusion and resolution of the crisis.

VG: Are these the same people that you really want to go . . . (interrupted)

MT: Well let me say this, you do not negotiate with your friends, you negotiate with your enemies and your opponents. That's a fundamental thing that you have to understand. Once you have negotiated, we believed that once that agreement is done in good faith then you can hope that you can then implement in the spirit. Now we have found out that at the end of the day, even when we have signed the agreement, Zanu-PF is not operating on the basis of sincerity. This is what we are putting them to test. We are putting them to test whether if they really want this agreement or whether they were just fooling, not only us but the rest of the world about this agreement.

VG: But Mr Tsvangirai, how long will this test go on for because we all know that Mugabe will not budge, so surely it is now imperative on your part to just decide, for the sake of the people what happens next, either you're in the deal or not?

MT: I've heard people say that Mugabe will not negotiate, Mugabe will not agree, but he has negotiated, he has agreed, although of course we are all sceptical about his commitment, that's an inherent fear of his own attitude, of his attitude towards the agreement but as far as I am concerned the issue is that he has negotiated, he is negotiating, until such time we are satisfied that an agreement has been reached and that we have the necessary tools to have the change we will continue on that road.

VG: I spoke to some political analysts just a week ago and even some Zimbabweans who say they don't want a power sharing agreement that involves Robert Mugabe and if I can quote the words of Brian Kagoro, he said Morgan Tsvangirai is better off drinking a bucket full of cholera infested water than go into a power sharing deal with Robert Mugabe. What can you say to those people who don't want a government of National Unity with Mugabe?

MT: Well the thing is everyone knows that everyone is sceptical on Mugabe but you see the thing is that unless you can exercise leadership to find a solution to the crisis through a negotiated route what else do you have? Those so-called political analysts and political commentators they can all have their criticisms. I don't stop them from having their own analytical position. I am here being guided by the mandate given to me by our national executive, by our party, by the people who I consult regularly. And the reason why we are not going into government is because people have said until certain measures are fulfilled and are achieved we cannot go into that government. So I go by the mandate and the support and the position taken by the people who I consult regularly on these issues.

VG: So of all the possible options, in a nutshell, what would be an acceptable settlement for you?

MT: We have outstanding issues and until those outstanding issues are fulfilled, we feel that we have not got an agreement that is workable. We still have not agreed on the question of distribution of ministries or portfolios, we have not agreed on the question of governors, we have not agreed on the 19th Amendment that gives legal effect to this agreement, we have not agreed on the national security legislation. So all those things are still outstanding. And until those are hammered out, we still believe that we haven't got an agreement.

VG: What do you make of civil society's call for a transitional authority?

MT: Well the thing is the question of options of transitional authority or mechanism; it still falls back into our road map. We articulated the question of transition; we articulated the question of a negotiated process. Even the transitional authority you are talking about has to come about as a result of a negotiation process. So you cannot just wish a transitional authority, from where, with who, without a negotiating process. So the question is that whoever is calling for a transitional authority is actually accepting our road map which called for a negotiated proper process, including a transitional authority with a constitution and then the election. It is the road map that we have defined. So I don't see anything new there, except perhaps in substance, changes here but as far as the process is concerned, we are speaking the same language.

VG: Your Memorandum of Understanding with Zanu-PF refers to the lifting of the restrictive measures imposed on the ruling elite by western countries, in your view, when would lifting the restrictive measures be most beneficial to the process?

MT: Well that is political rhetoric. That has nothing to do with us because we didn't determine when those would be lifted.

VG: But you agreed in your MOU.

MT: Yes we agreed, we agreed in the MOU on the basis that we would have an agreement in the end. At this moment, there is no agreement. And so, until such agreement is reached, and everyone is satisfied that we are now forming an inclusive government, it's up to those countries also to measure, to find out whether those agreements actually fulfilled the basis of that agreement. Ok?

VG: What about attitudes from African countries because we heard from Tanzania, the AU chairman saying there won't be any foreign intervention and SADC really has not done much, in fact it's actually pushing you to go into this unity government with Zanu-PF?

MT: May I conclude, may I conclude my remarks Violet by saying that we have a deal which we have signed, it's part of our resolution to have a road map to a negotiated solution. We have not yet reached a perfect position to resolve this crisis. SADC and AU are guarantors of this agreement. They should ensure that whatever agreement then to form a government it is in line with that objective. And as far as I'm concerned that is the road we are in. We have not reached the finality of it yet. Until such time as we have reached that finality and we have not been able to consummate that government because of difficulties we will face or because we have not ironed out some of the outstanding issues I think the problem is that we wait until there is a conclusion.

VG: Okay, thank you very much Mr Morgan Tsvangirai.

MT: You're welcome. Thank you, bye bye.

Feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

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