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Transcript of 'Hot Seat' with Zimbabwean commentator Dr Alex Magaisa
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
October 17, 2008

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat241008.htm

Violet Gonda: My guest on the programme Hot Seat is Dr Alex Magaisa a writer on Zimbabwean issues. Welcome on the programme Alex.

Alex Magaisa: Thanks for having me Violet.

Gonda: It's seven months now and Zimbabwe still has no proper government in place. There is a serious humanitarian crisis across the country that has already taken the lives of countless children, and the political impasse continues. Can you first of all comment on the current situation?

Magaisa: Well of course the current situation in Zimbabwe is to put it in a nutshell, a humanitarian crisis in the sense that there are masses of people who are obviously struggling to get by every day. The economy itself continues to deteriorate and at the end of it all we have the political parties who are supposed to be leading the way forward still haggling over the formation of a new government. So we are where we are in terms of the politics perhaps a year ago in the sense that nothing really has changed which may be of substantive assistance to the people of Zimbabwe. And that really is the state of Zimbabwe.

Gonda: It appears ZANU PF attitudes are not changing either even though the political parties are talking to share power. Only this week we saw students and WOZA activists getting beaten and arrested and the State continues to use repressive laws to block journalists from doing their work, like we saw how Peta Thornycroft and Brian Hungwe were thrown out of the talks' venue. It is also reported that the police and war veterans are blocking MDC officials from distributing food to hungry orphans in the Nyanga area. These are just a few examples of rights abuses taking place in the country in the background of the talks. Is it being too negative to point these issues out at this particular time and can you share power with a government that abuses its own people like this?

Magaisa: Well, you know Violet there is a saying in the African community that no matter how long you keep a log in the water it is not going to be a crocodile. In other words some things never change and that seems to be the case in the situation we have in Zimbabwe as far as ZANU PF is concerned. I think all progressive people in Zimbabwe would have hoped that ZANU PF would at least act in good faith and try and improve the lives of a lot of people in Zimbabwe but it appears they are in it simply for their own selfish ends - in other words the ends of the politicians. It's their lives on the line and they are looking after their own bacon and that is unfortunate.

So when you ask the question 'is it possible to share power with people who are behaving in such a way?' Then of course the pessimistic view will be that it is practically impossible. The optimists will probably say that once the MDC or any other opposition movement gets into bed with such a regime they might be able to change things from within. Perhaps that is being too optimistic but sometime in life you have to try things.

Gonda: People are so desperate for change is it being too negative to continue to point out these issues?

Magaisa: No I don't think that is being too negative. I think the role of the media and indeed the role of the watch dogs - the parliament and the judiciary is to bring politicians to account, is to point out things that are not right. There is no reason why people should put a gloss on a situation that is terrible. If the events that were taking place two or three months ago are still continuing then surely they have to be reported because it gives people a realistic picture of where they are going.

Gonda: And let's say the MDC maintains their position and insists on sharing the key ministries properly and they get everything they want. Can a dictatorship share power even if it gives away key ministries?

Magaisa: Well, I think that is the million dollar question isn't it? These are things you can only see on the basis of experience. At this point we can only speculate. What we are seeing with ZANU PF even after the signing of the September 15 agreement is that ZANU PF has refused to budge. They have tended to try and use unilateralism in the way they, for example, published the allocation of cabinet seats and in the way they continue to hold on to their positions. You see Violet, make no mistake about it, these guys are fighting over cabinet positions; there is going to be a time when they have to deal with matters of substantive policies and you ask yourself 'are they going to agree?' I actually think there are more battles ahead as we go ahead.

Gonda: We have seen how Mugabe abuses his presidential powers which he can use to overturn anything he wants. Now if there is a new power sharing government how do you curtail presidential powers because this is what has created so many problems in the country in the last 28 years?

Magaisa: The hope was - and this is what some of us have been saying for quite a long time since the agreement - the hope was that the agreement would usher in a new era in the sense that people would act in good faith and build trust and confidence with each other but I don't think that the past month or so has shown anything like that. So there is a real risk that the arsenal that ZANU PF has always used in the past is still available, because the presidential powers act is still there and there is nothing to stop Mugabe from using those powers. And so I think it's going to be very, very difficult for the MDC because they will be trying to be genuine. They will be trying to do things in good faith perhaps but they don't realise that they are dealing with a very, very crafty organisation.

Gonda: Some people say perhaps the MDC should pull out. What are your thoughts on this? Is pulling out of the power sharing agreement an option for the MDC ?

Magaisa: You know Violet, pulling out - I will take it back to the time before the signing of the September 15th agreement. Some people were saying 'tongai tione' in other words 'let ZANU PF rule' and my position then was that unless there is an alternative to that I don't think that is a route that Zimbabwe can actually afford to take at this stage. So I am still of the view that even if we say the MDC must pull out at this stage they have to have a Plan B. There has to be an alternative - what now if you pull out? Unless somebody tells me that there is an alternative then I do think that the MDC have to fight it out and try and get the best they can and try and work from within. Because it's only by getting incrementally that little power within the structures of government one day they will get enough space and leverage to be able to win any election in Zimbabwe - I mean in order to be actually declared a winner.

Gonda: I was actually going to ask you that in your view, who stands to benefit more in the event that a power sharing government is formed?

Magaisa: Well as far as we are concerned at the moment ZANU PF was due to be on its way out. ZANU PF has got a rescue package from this agreement. In other words if they hadn't been able to cook up the results and delay the process of the election, use violence and beat up people and so forth, they would be out of government but they managed to claw back some of the lost powers, some of the lost ground and so they have benefited to the extent that they are still able to have a say in the structures of government. But at the same time the MDC also will in some ways be able to gain that little foothold in government and if they can use it strategically - the point that we have always been making about the MDC is not to be reactive but to be proactive. To try and have clear strategies of what they want to achieve within the next three years for example if they are to get into government. Not what they are going to have tomorrow. I think it's always important to have that clear vision and sometimes I tend to see that the opposition in Zimbabwe - the MDC and so forth tend to be more reactive to events.

Gonda: Speaking about the opposition - from your observation to what extent are the two MDC formations working together because some critics say a unity government will never work with the way they hate each other. Do you think it's true that the Mutambara MDC , for example, finds it easier to work with Mugabe rather than Tsvangirai?

Magaisa: Well it is difficult without sufficient information on my part to say who is working with whom, but as far as I am concerned and I have said this from the beginning of the split in 2005 that the MDCs whatever their differences have to appreciate that they can work together for the common good because they have a common purpose. There are minor differences - perhaps some of them are based on personalities. You know these people will come and go as long as the ideas of the parties are the same and they are pursuing the same goal then they should be able to work together but unfortunately I think personalities get in the way and that is one of the big problems, I think, between the two MDCs.

So ZANU PF, you see, because it is a crafty and cunning party what they will do is they will always try to find a way of dividing and ruling. To create impressions of who is who and you see this also plays into the hands of ZANU PF because ZANU PF can then use that to try and create these divisions - not only among the leaders but also among the population, among the people who begin to fight each other because you are Mutambara's supporter or you are a Tsvangirai supporter. And sometimes we don't realise this, unwittingly we fall to the tricks.

Gonda: Dr Simba Makoni reportedly said recently there was no shared or common vision among the political players in the ongoing talks over the sharing of Cabinet positions. What do you make of that statement?

Magaisa: Well, I think he is largely right. What we have been talking about in the recent past is that the fight - I can understand the fight for the cabinet positions because it's about power because first and foremost politicians are fighting for power. But what I cannot understand is why they are not trying to get round this question of power by actually focusing on the vision, on the policy. I would want Tsvangirai, Mugabe and Mutambara and their subordinates to sit down and say 'what is going to be our foreign policy?' Now if they disagree on that they are going nowhere. 'What is going to be our economic policy?' If they disagree on that they are going nowhere.

It doesn't matter who holds what ministry because at the end of the day Violet each minister will act in terms of the cabinet instructions and the cabinet has something that is called 'collective responsibility.' It doesn't matter whether you are an MDC minister or a ZANU PF minister. I don't think that concept is understood properly and I think we are wasting time in some ways, in dillydallying over these issues of who holds what positions when in fact at the end of the day they will have to work together both legally and practically.

Gonda: And former MDC legislator for St Mary's Job Sikhala said there is a failure of leadership and in an interview with one of my colleagues here at the station he said and I quote: 'They are all greedy, they talk about power, power and more power and not the people who are living under difficult and extremely poor conditions. Every single day now is an engagement to negotiate to stay afloat.' What do you make of that statement and if we were to look at someone like Morgan Tsvangirai - because he says ALL three leaders are all greedy and they are talking about power - does Morgan Tsvangirai have the potential of being a dictator like Robert Mugabe?

Magaisa: Well, Violet my answer to that will be very blunt. Every human being has the potential of becoming a dictator and the only question is the extent to which that person is prevented from descending into that position by virtue of the rules and also with the way in which he is made accountable. So I cannot stand and say Morgan Tsvangirai is not going to be a dictator because many people said that of Mugabe in 1980 and there have been very unpleasantly surprised.

But let me go back to Sikhala's position. He is right when he talks about leaders being interested in power but I think what perhaps should be emphasised is that, that's what politicians are for - they are for power. Sometimes we forget that this is what they are looking for. When politicians talk about the people, and sometimes we forget, the people - this is the route to get into power if you can persuade enough people to say you can be their leader. If you can persuade enough people to say that you are sympathetic to their interests it doesn't matter what you will do afterwards, so I wouldn't be surprised.

The key thing is for civil society, for example, to remain what it was. There were times when we were worried that the civil society was getting into bed with political parties and I think that was cause for worry simply because you need checks and balances - you need to check Tsvangirai, you need to check Mutambara and you need to check Mugabe. No individual can be trusted with power because they are prone to abusing that power.

Gonda: And on the other hand, you know MDC structures have been decimated and the MDC is fractured because of what has been happening to it in the last few years and has lost a lot of intellectuals and supporters who have been forced to flee the country. So to what extent is the MDC ready to take on the role of government given what it has had to go through over the last few years?

Magaisa: Well, you know Violet the question of readiness to govern encompasses a lot of things and I think the most important is you are ready to govern because people want you to govern, because people have chosen you to govern. They may be wrong but that is a matter decided by their experiences. The MDC itself definitely needs to refocus in terms of their agenda, what really they are after. You know the global financial crisis has caused a lot of changes in the world. Some of the ideas that the MDC might have held in high esteem I think those ideas may have been discredited at this stage. So it obviously needs to work on those things.

It depends on the extent to which they are prepared to be more inclusive to open up to those Zimbabweans whether they are in the Diaspora or Zimbabweans within. But people who are really keen and devoted to making a contribution to that country. I think Zimbabwe can develop. The MDC can govern if it is given the opportunity, as long as they can have good faith, as long as they can have the commitment to use maximum resources where they are needed.

Gonda: So what kind of balancing act though, do you think will have to be performed in a country with a bloated government - they are talking about 31 ministries - and a broken economy?

Magaisa: I think civil society is going to play a very pivotal role going forward. There is a view among a lot of people that civil society is only there to oppose ZANU PF and Mugabe and I think that is incorrect. Civil society organisations are there to keep a watchful eye on those who govern or who have political power. But there is also the judiciary. Those are institutions that have to be improved in the way that they are managed, in the way that they are projected because at this stage the judiciary seems to be compromised - at least that is the view that is held by common people and that is rather unfortunate. But again parliament itself will have to reassert itself to be able to play that balancing position as far as the cabinet is concerned. But you know it's a whole host of factors that have to be taken into account going forward.

Gonda: And as we said earlier the Tsvangirai MDC has been up against sheer physical terror, but to what extent are the victims' memories influential in the MDC, because martyrs of any cause lend huge moral authority to whatever cause they lost their lives for?

Magaisa: In any struggle things are going to happen that are terrible and Zimbabwe has had its fair share of terrible events in its young history and what happened in the last few months and indeed in the last few months last year or so for MDC supporters is quite terrible. But also whenever we talk about governance and memory I always urge people not to think of Zimbabwe as if things began in 1999/2000 with the formation of the MDC. I always urge people to think more holistically to think historically about what happened in Matabeleland, about what happened even in the war of independence itself.

Gonda: That's right.

Magaisa: National healing doesn't start simply because we start talking about what happened from 2000 to 2008. National healing has to embrace a whole host of communities, a whole host of people. That memory which is of much longer duration has to be taken into account and that is the only way that Zimbabwe can develop.

Gonda: But realistically do you think the Mugabe regime will agree or accept that especially after what it did during Gukurahundi in the 80s and what it's done now. What can you say about that?

Magaisa: I don't think they can accept it outright because you see this is perhaps one of the reasons why they are holding out. They are people who are afraid of retribution. They are people who are alive who are afraid they will be held to account and they would want to avoid that possibility. So to expect ZANU PF to try itself I think is expecting a little bit too much. But you see it's a process that has to be accepted as something that is going to be long and painful. Eventually people will be held to account. The only thing that you can hope for Violet is that the pro-democratic forces or people who are genuinely for the development of that country can be able to get into those structures and try and change the culture of the country. Eventually you will find that even within ZANU PF itself, even within the army, the police force, the prisons or whatever, there are some good people in there who are stifled by the system. Those people will work for the interest of the country and who knows what might happen. Things do change very quickly.

Gonda: And what if things don't change and what if this stalemate continues? Will bodies like the African Union or United Nations have the power to force Mugabe to reform?

Magaisa: So far when you look at the history of the current struggle in Zimbabwe and you look at the reaction of the African Union, the SADC and other organisations you can see that there has been a change in the way they view Zimbabwe . It has been slow, painful and perhaps frustrating for a lot of Zimbabweans in the sense that they tended to support the ZANU PF regime and Mugabe at the beginning. They thought that what he was doing was incredible but what has happened over the past few years - Murambatsvina, the violence in the elections, the poverty in Zimbabwe and so forth I think has begun to show these other leaders that there is something wrong about the regime.

But you see they have this brotherhood that they have amongst themselves so they don't do things in public. But it would appear to me that the longer ZANU PF holds out the more there are changes in other African countries like South Africa and so forth. There would be pressure I think for the Africa Union, for SADC to take a stronger view on Zimbabwe .

Gonda: But what sort of pressure would we expect from these countries?

Magaisa: Well I think part of it could be economic pressure in the sense that Zimbabwe obviously is functioning rather badly at the moment but it is functioning nonetheless because it still gets support from its neighbours. But this policy of appeasement or accommodation can end. I think people will begin to tell Mr Mugabe more in the face that this is wrong. I think his biggest cushion so far has been Mr Thabo Mbeki who has been rather sympathetic with him. But I think there will be a change in the coming few months. ZANU PF cannot afford to continue on this path because Zimbabwe is literally breaking down so I cannot see them going forward without the support of the MDC and the other organisations.

Gonda: Dr Alex Magaisa thanks you very much.

Magaisa: Thanks so much Violet I appreciate that.

Feedback can be sent to violet@swradioafrica.com

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