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Hot Seat interview with Dr Simba Makoni
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
July 24, 2008

Read the March 14, 2008 Hot Seat interview with Dr Simba Makoni here

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat240708.htm

Violet Gonda: Dr Simba Makoni, one of the presidential candidates in Zimbabwe's controversial March 29 election, is my guest on the programme Hot Seat this week. Hello Dr Makoni.

Simba Makoni: Hello Violet, how are you?

Gonda: Fine thank you. What is your perception of the conditions on the ground because ZANU PF, for example, has said there is no violence to the extent that is being reported by the MDC? What can you say about this?

Makoni: It's not perception or perceptions, Violet. We have a full grasp of the real situation on the ground, and it presents itself in many respects. The condition of life of the people has worsened and is worsening literally by the day. Food shortages are acute, medical services and medication are unavailable - so unavailable that the victims of the violence that you referred to earlier cannot get medical attention at anywhere - from primary health care centres to the national central referral hospitals. The economy is getting worse. Goods are less and less available everyday and the little that is available is more and more expensive by several tens if not hundred fold, the previous day or the previous morning.

The violence that you refer to - yes it continues - but there has been a slight abatement since June 27. But it continues. In some districts and in some areas there hasn't been any lessening of it. And so in summary the condition of life of the people of Zimbabwe worsens by the day in all respects.

Gonda: I had an interview with George Charamba, the spokesperson in the President's Office, and he was adamant that the violence is on both sides. That ZANU PF people have also been brutalised by opposition or MDC supporters. What can you say about this?

Makoni: It's farcical. The discussion is not about who has brutalised how many people. The discussion is that Zimbabweans should not be brutalised by other Zimbabweans. This tagging of labels - ZANU PF, MDC, youths or war veterans - is farcical in my view. The bottom line is Zimbabweans should not have to endure these hardships, this brutalisation, this violence, the killings and so I don't believe we would be showing genuine authentic leadership if we hide behind pointing fingers - "It's not me it's the other person" - the bottom line is the violence should not take place by anyone. Whether MDC or ZANU PF, whether young or old, whether ex-combatant or civilians Zimbabweans should not be brutalising each other particularly on the incitement of political leaders.

Gonda: What about the actual talks that is going on in Zimbabwe right now between ZANU PF and the two MDCs. What are your thoughts first of all about what is happening with this?

Makoni: Well first I must concede that I know very little about the actual discussions because I personally, and colleagues in my movement, and other national stakeholders outside ZANU PF and the MDC are not involved. And so we are all depending on either public communications or indirect information from either side. There is very little being communicated directly to the population. We hear that there are talks about talks.

But what do I think? I think that we are on the right path. You will recall that when I launched my campaign, my primary call was that the country needs cooperation among its leaders, in spite of the outcome of the election. Even if one party or the other had won an outright majority, it was then and still is my view that to solve Zimbabwe's current crisis requires the full cooperation of all leaders. Not just leaders in politics but even leaders beyond politics. So from that point of view it is a positive development that the two main protagonists are talking, the discussions are tentative, they are slow. We need urgently - because the country is burning literally, literally the country is burning - and we need to douse the fires out. There is not only one fire; there are many fires. So we need to engage urgently; we need to engage purposefully, and we need above all to be beyond factional, parochial, partisan interests and be national.

Gonda: And you mentioned earlier on that you are not involved and you know very little about what is being discussed, but as one of the Presidential candidates are you supposed to be involved in this and if so why aren't you involved?

Makoni: I am - not necessarily I personally, but the constituency that I represent and the other constituencies beyond which I represent need to be involved because we believe that an all inclusive - the broadened platform of participation of Zimbabwean leadership is required to solve the problems confronting our country because they are to o big for any one entity or a small number of entities. That is the answer to your first question, the answer to the second question is I am not involved because I am not convening the discussion but we have certainly indicated to all the parties involved - the facilitator included - that we believe that those negotiations need to be broader based than just the two protagonists at the moment. We are not the only ones who hold this belief.

Gonda: At least 43 organisations from the civil society met in Harare and actually called for broader consultation and the civil society is also complaining that they are not being consulted about what is happening with these talks. And also they have called for a Transitional Authority and not a Government of National Unity. Do you favour a Government of National Unity or a Transitional Authority?

Makoni: Well Violet the first comment to make is that I am delighted that what we propositioned to Zimbabwe at the launch of my election campaign is what everybody is now taking on board. That we need cooperation, we need working together of national leaders. That we need to construct what we formally called a National Authority others are calling it a Government of National Unity. I am delighted about that but as I said earlier we need to engage urgently into the process.

The second observation is that in a statement that I made after the announcement of the Presidential results I advanced at that point the idea of a Transitional National Authority - not a Government of National Unity. Other discussions, including the media, then introduced the terminology of the Government of National Unity. So I would say that we believe a Transitional Authority is more appropriate to the circumstances in which we are than just a straight Government of National Unity, which you might equate to a Coalition Government in other jurisdictions - because the country is in transition.

The country needs to be transited from this autocratic and oppressive environment we are in to a democratic, open environment in which national institutions serves the people as a whole than a particular organisation or section. In which the playing field of politics is level for all those who yearn to play politics without discrimination. In which there is no violence. There is strict observance of the laws of the land by everyone and every entity. That's where we must move to, and that is why we suggest that a Transitional Authority is more appropriate than a Government of National Unity.

Gonda: But Dr Makoni do you expect Robert Mugabe to actually give up power from what you know of him? Because a Transitional Authority pre-supposes that there is a need for a new constitution. How likely is it that Mugabe would agree to a new constitution if there was a TA - a Transitional Authority?

Makoni: Well I think Mugabe can speak for himself. What I expect as a patriotic serving Zimbabwean is that all genuine national leaders will not play power games but will render service to the people and if rendering service to the people is equal to giving up power then so be it.

Gonda: A government of National Unity retains the current constitution and maybe you can correct us on this one - how can a Transitional Authority be created under the current constitution? What would be required?

Makoni: Well I think those are the details that will be hammered out around the table and it would be inappropriate for me to table a formula here. But we certainly have ideas, we have thoughts that we have applied to this matter but I don't believe that the current constitution by itself is a constraint to constructing a Transitional National Authority. It would have to be the starting point. But it would also have to be recognised that it is only a transient. It is a starting point to another destination and that other destination would be a new, better, more democratic constitution than what we have. And one of the deliverables from that Transitional Authority would be a new constitution for Zimbabwe.

Gonda: But how do you force that or enforce this? I am sorry I am going on about this issue - because many people have called for a Transitional Authority, especially members from the civil society. But with what we know and how we have seen Mugabe dealing with the political issues in the country - he has refused to have a new constitution. The National Constitutional Assembly has tried for many years to have a new people driven constitution and that hasn't worked. And the fact that only the political parties are conducting or holding these talks doesn't it show that the regime will not entertain such a scenario?

Makoni: Well Violet the circumstances have changed from March 29 compared to the earlier years you are talking about. Mugabe is now a minority leader in Zimbabwe. ZANU PF is no longer the ruling party. The conditions of life of the population have worsened beyond description. Mugabe himself has indicated publicly including his so-called inauguration statement, that he is willing and ready to discuss cooperation with other leaders. Before he wasn't ready even to say that - whether he means it or not will be seen with the passage of time. So we are not cast in concrete, we are not stuck in the same place. Even Mugabe and ZANU PF are not stuck where they were in 2005 and 2007. Not even where they were on March 30 after the initial election results.

So the situation has moved and it is that movement in the situation, in spite of all the arrogance, bravado that you may hear from people, which presents the opportunity for moving away from the current to a better dispensation.

Gonda: Now Morgan Tsvangirai has been stalling and has refused to sign the document - the Memorandum of Understanding draft that has been agreed upon by the 3 main political parties - until the African Union clarifies on the issue of an additional mediator and an end to the violence that is going on. Do you think he is being wise here - stalling?

Makoni: Well Violet I am somewhat limited to make a judgement of this call because I don't know enough. I hear like you that those are the reasons he has advanced but I would be very surprised if they are the full reasons. Waiting for an indication of the African Union when the negotiators, mind you, are Morgan's negotiators. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me so I suspect there is a lot more than meets the eye on that and when I know it I will make a clear judgement on his position.

Gonda: But what is your assessment of Thabo Mbeki's mediation because Morgan Tsvangirai says he does not want Thabo Mbeki as the sole mediator?

Makoni: Look I don't believe that we can afford the luxury of throwing stones from glass houses. Thabo Mbeki is who we have, who SADC gave us and we are not going to get another mediator, facilitator from SADC than Thabo Mbeki. And certainly if we get one it will not be from shouting from the mountain tops and throwing abuse. It has to be worked at carefully and correctly in the right forums. That there is a call for someone else to assist President Mbeki is understandable. I believe that there is room to accommodate such enhancement of facilitation, but it should not be at the expense of progress. Let us keep running and the others will run faster to join us where we will have gotten to.

Gonda: What about the issue of sanctions - you know that a draft resolution had been tabled at the United Nations Security Council to impose targeted sanctions on 14 members of the Mugabe regime, what are your thoughts on that?

Makoni: Well that is now a matter of history even if it is a few days history. The resolution was not carried. The resolution had specific objectives to assist, move the process forward, it wasn't carried and I think we should move forward and address the situation on the ground in the best manner possible. The international community will have another method and platform of engagement than the sanctions the UN had carried.

Gonda: But the British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and even George Bush has warned that this is not a finished matter and that it could be re-tabled if the negotiations don't go through. What are your thoughts on the issue of sanctions?

Makoni: I think people must hold all options open that assist to advance the process of national reconciliation, national accommodation and the emergence of Zimbabwe as a country and Zimbabweans as people from this crisis. And I don't believe we should foreclose any opportunities that assist that process.

Gonda: You have worked with Robert Mugabe before and, when he says things like he will never allow Morgan Tsvangirai to rule Zimbabwe, does he mean it; and if so what is the point of the MDC negotiating with people like that?

Makoni: Well Violet all I can say is that it's not everything that meets the eye that is what it looks. Looks are quite misleading. Remember - and it's a very pointed recollection - Ian Smith's "never in a thousand years" and the thousand years became four years.

Gonda: What do you think is at the roots of the Zimbabwean problem? Is it an old outdated dictatorship or is it trying to prevent colonialism?

Makoni: Violet at the risk of sounding like a broken record - I will repeat the exact words I said on February 5. The crisis that this country and its people find themselves in is a result of the failure of leadership at the highest level. I just made reference to Ian Smith a while ago. Robert Mugabe negotiated with Ian Smith. I don't believe that Morgan Tsvangirai is a worse person compared to Ian Smith - even in Robert Mugabe's eyes. I don't believe so. But we emerged from Rhodesia into Zimbabwe on the table of negotiations. In the early 80s when we had what has since been called the Gukurahundi era we emerged from that crisis through negotiations and I am convinced we will emerge from this crisis through accommodation and cooperation of leaders. Not withstanding whatever people may pronounce publicly as their public position.

Gonda: How would you respond to people who say Morgan Tsvangirai should not negotiate with losers, should not negotiate with murderers and that by negotiating he will be rewarding a loser and also excusing the bad behaviour that we have seen in Zimbabwe in the last few years?

Makoni: Before I give you my view on that I would pose the question; what alternative are these people giving Morgan Tsvangirai? I haven't heard anyone advance an alternative. But even if they have I would suggest that the path of accommodation, the path of cooperation, the path of working together is better, more desirable, and more effective for Zimbabwe in the situation it is currently than any other path of exclusion.

Gonda: And Dr Makoni can you give us your reaction to a report that appeared in an online paper - The Zimbabwe Times - saying that you became an independent candidate because it was part of a ZANU PF plot. The article was entitled; "Exposed the Mnangagwa, Makoni plot." What can you say about that?

Makoni: Well first it's a lie but it's not a new lie. If you recall during the course of the campaign there were allegations by various sources that suggested I was a ZANU PF plant to confuse the opposition voters. It's the same lie that is still being padded around.

Gonda: Now the report claims that your quest these days seems to be finding a role for yourself after being rejected by the electorate and that is why you are pushing for a Transitional Authority?

Makoni: Well again, if you remember in my launch statement - the statement that I announced I was going to be a candidate - and in the launch of my campaign I already advanced the concept of a National Authority, drawn from all key constituencies of the country. And so how can people suggest I am doing this only after the elections? That was my campaign platform!

Gonda: So what about other issues that have come up saying that you are planning to rejoin ZANU PF?

Makoni: Everything in that story is a blatant lie! I don't know who created those lies and for what purpose, and what is of interest is that the publisher of that magazine, newspaper or whatever it is did not bother, as is normal with journalism, to check the story before they went to print. They must have had an ulterior motive right from the beginning.

Gonda: What do you think the motive is?

Makoni: I don't know. Probably to discredit me, to advance a particular cause, I don't know whose it is, but that story is a complete fabrication.

Gonda: How would you respond to people who ask; what ever happened to the ZANU PF bigwigs who were supposed to follow your group?

Makoni: Violet, remember we discussed this matter during the campaign? Again, I didn't create the story of the bigwigs. It was you in the media - not you personally but I mean the media. Even this story is claiming that I announced there would be bigwigs; I want them to put out the evidence of that. I did not make any statements nor issue any written material which said I expected bigwigs. The bigwigs for me are the people of Zimbabwe, some of them - 207 000 of them voted for me on March 29. A lot more of them are out in all corners of Zimbabwe who support what I stand for. Those are the bigwigs for me. This story is a creation of some mischief-maker.

Gonda: What about links to Emerson Mnangagwa or even Solomon Mujuru?

Makoni: Everything in that story is a lie. When I met Mr Robert Mugabe, he was President at that time - it was he and I, just the two of us. I did not meet Emerson Mnangagwa at that time. I have since met Emerson Mnangagwa at the beginning of June, as I have done with a number of other ZANU PF leaders to urge them to work to stop the violence.

Gonda: What do they say when you do talk to them about the issue of the violence?

Makoni: That they don't support it.

Gonda: So who is behind it then?

Makoni: Well nobody has admitted to being behind it to me.

Gonda: Thank you very much Dr Simba Makoni for agreeing to talk on the programme Hot Seat.

Makoni: Thank you Violet.

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