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Transcript of 'Hot Seat' interview with James McGee, US Ambassador to Zimbabwe
Violet Gonda , SW Radio Africa
May 09, 2008

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat120508.htm

Violet Gonda: United State Ambassador to Zimbabwe James McGee is my guest on the programme Hot Seat this week. Thank you for coming on the programme Ambassador.

Ambassador McGee: Violet thank you, very pleased to be with you today.

Violet: Thank you. In recent interviews you have described the situation on the ground in Zimbabwe as human rights and humanitarian crisis. How would you describe the conditions on the ground today?

Ambassador McGee: I think those conditions remain exactly the same Violet. In fact if anything they are somewhat worse. We are still getting numerous reports of violence and intimidation in the countryside. We have unconfirmed reports that we are trying to log down right now of up to 10 people who were beaten to death in an area outside of Harare on yesterday. We still have firm reports of people being hospitalized with broken limps, people hospitalized with burns and these are all people who have been abducted or forced to go to torture-camps. They are forced to sing songs, forced to renounce their membership in the MDC - in many cases to give up MDC voting cards. So I would say that the human rights issues are exactly the same or possibly even worse.

On a humanitarian side we are still receiving reports that there are granaries - places where the crops are stored - that have been burnt. People are still having problems accessing food. We are trying to deal with that issue but it's becoming problematic because it's difficult for many of the NGOs who deal with those type of issues to even travel in the countryside.

Violet: So people are being deliberately starved and food is being burnt but the MDC says at least 24 people have been killed so far, but ZANU PF claims it's the MDC supporters who are behind the violence. Now you personally documented reports of violence. What were your findings? Are these MDC supporters who are being victimized or it's the other way round?

Ambassador McGee: We have literally hundreds of reports, affidavits, pictures, people coming in and telling us their stories, us going to hospitals where the victims are literally 99.9% MDC. We have had one or two cases recently where ZANU PF people have been victimized. I can't say this with total assurance but it seems that these people may have been victimized in retaliation from what they started.

Violet: And do you believe what is happening in Zimbabwe right now could be described as a crime of genocide?

Ambassador McGee: No I am not nearly ready to go that far and start talking about genocide. This is purely politically inspired violence and intimidation.

Violet: What will be done with the documentation of all these atrocities?

Ambassador McGee: We are collecting this to send off to the United Nations. We have already sent off one package to the United Nations. Just this morning I met with Ambassadors from SADC countries. We are giving them the same information that we passed on to the United Nations and we will continue to do that - working with SADC, the African Union and the United Nations to see what they can bring to the table to end this violence in Zimbabwe.

Violet: Have you communicated your findings on the political violence to the Zimbabwean government?

Ambassador McGee: The Zimbabwean government is well aware of everything we have.

Violet: And have they said anything? Have you been able to actually talk to them about it?

Ambassador McGee: No as you know Violet we have a very difficult time speaking with the government of Zimbabwe . Our relationship has been somewhat better recently that it was in the past but for the last several weeks - I will say since the elections it has been very difficult to have any access to anyone in government who can say anything.

Violet: What about the International or even the local Red Cross, have they been able to help the victims of political violence?

Ambassador McGee: I am not certain that the Red Cross has done anything. I have not seen any of the international organizations out there. We do have several NGO groups and numerous, very numerous local groups and individuals who are helping people who have been victimized. I am really pleased with the outpouring of assistance that has happened here and colleagues from the SADC countries have also come forward and assisted people who have been victimized, people who have had their food and their homes burnt.

Violet: Now when you say you are not aware of the work that the Red Cross is doing on the ground is it because you have not been able to find out or there is no work that the Red Cross is doing in Zimbabwe right now?

Ambassador McGee: No it's just that I have been unable to find out. They may be here, they may be doing work I am just unaware if they are.

Violet: Now Ambassador how would you interpret this recent remark by Robert Mugabe and I quote: " We used guns to liberate ourselves from the Rhodesian colonial government 28 years ago and we are going to use the same guns to stop the MDC or (Simba) Makoni."

Ambassador McGee: Well I think that is a deliberate affront to the expressed will of the people of Zimbabwe . Violet it is very clear that the people of Zimbabwe have voted for change in this last election. If you look at the numbers of votes cast for the opposition - and I would use that word collectively, opposition parties, the three opposition parties - that number runs through to about 58%. In any, any election anywhere in the world 58% of the vote is a vote for change. So for President Mugabe to say that 'we will use guns, we will use violence to remain in power," is denying the democratic will of the people of Zimbabwe .

Violet: You indicated that there would be justice against perpetrators of violence - are there any efforts to contain the violence at a diplomatic level?

Ambassador McGee: We are doing everything we can Violet. Again we are talking to the United Nations, we are talking to people in SADC and the African Union. This is truly an issue that I think regional players can be much more effective at stopping this violence than maybe even the international community.

Violet: Is the situation in Zimbabwe one that requires intervention?

Ambassador McGee: It requires intervention? Right now the only intervention that is needed is dialogue. We need honest brokers that will be able to talk to President Mugabe, that the government listens and stops this violence. You cannot continue to deny that there is no violence taking place. We have the evidence.

Violet: A run off is expected in Zimbabwe . In your view is there the political space necessary for a free and fair second round?

Ambassador McGee: Absolutely not. That is exactly what is happening now. There is directed violence that is meant to intimidate people to vote in one direction and that direction is against the opposition.

Violet: Now if you were to advise the opposition what would you say on the issue of the run off?

Ambassador McGee: I won't be so bold as to advise the opposition. I think they have some fairly good plans themselves on how they should respond to this violence, what they should do with the run off. I am also very, very eager to see what those plans are.

Violet: What was discussed when Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs Jendayi Fraser met with MDC leader Morgan Tsvangirai in South Africa recently?

Ambassador McGee: The meeting was just to talk about the situation on the ground here in Zimbabwe , to talk about his thoughts on the elections. At that time the delay in announcing the results of the elections played very heavily in the discussions and where we were going from that point.

Violet: So are you happy with the role SADC has been taking on the Zimbabwean situation?

Ambassador McGee: I think our colleagues at SADC have an extremely, extremely important role to play. As I mentioned earlier I had a meeting with SADC Ambassadors resident here in Harare earlier today and they all expressed their absolute amazement with the levels and the amount of violence that is going on in the countryside. Honestly some of the Ambassadors had not seen first hand the violence that had been committed and I was able to show them the wonderful DVD that was put together by the Solidarity Peace Trust. It's a very compelling video and if you haven't seen it I think you really need to.

Violet: And I know earlier on you said you have not been able to communicate properly with Robert Mugabe but is he talking to the diplomatic community in general about the situation in Zimbabwe ?

Ambassador McGee: From what I know, from the diplomats that I have been able to speak with the answer is no. There seems to be a very closed issue here.

Violet: Do you think he is still in charge?

Ambassador McGee: Yes I think President Mugabe is very much in charge of what's happening here in Zimbabwe

Violet: What about Thabo Mbeki's quiet diplomacy? The MDC has demanded that he withdrew, he withdraws from being the mediator. What do you think and how do you see the way he has handled the Zimbabwean situation?

Ambassador McGee: I think President Mbeki did a very good job in the run up to the general elections. The negotiations that he did lead led to a large amount of political space. Morgan Tsvangirai himself has even commented that this was probably the freest, fairest run up to an election that he has ever contested here in Zimbabwe . Since the elections we have had other issues and I think it's necessary to continue with the negotiations. SADC has seen it fit to keep President Mbeki on as the head negotiator and we are going to agree with that until our colleagues in SADC says it's not going to happen any longer.

Violet: What are your thoughts though on the way Mr Mbeki has been blocking the Zimbabwean situation being put on the agenda at the United Nations Security Council?

Ambassador McGee: Well we of course would have liked to have seen those issues tabled at the United Nations. South Africa had the Chair at the time and it chose not to allow those issues to come to the fore. That will happen in the future. That will happen in the very near future. The issues of Zimbabwe will be seen and heard by the world.

Violet: Can you respond to the allegations that the US is threatening the sovereignty of Zimbabwe and is sponsoring the MDC?

Ambassador McGee: First of all we do not sponsor any political parties. We work with NGOs, we work with civil societies, and we work with democratic minded groups here in Zimbabwe . But we do not work, we do not sponsor, we do not provide funding to any political party in Zimbabwe ?

Violet: Mbeki is now saying the same thing that the US and Britain are meddling and so do you think regional leaders have been influenced by what Mugabe has been saying because he has always accused the opposition of being puppets of the West; that you support the MDC and you have a policy of regime change. And according to South African media, Mbeki told African church leaders that his mediation efforts were being hampered because Mr Tsvangirai was a puppet of the West. What can you say about this?

Ambassador McGee: Well I have not seen those comments by President Mbeki so I am not going to comment on that part of it. What I can say is that; we are working with civil society in Zimbabwe , as I said we do not provide funding for any particular political party. If President Mbeki feels that his efforts have been hampered by our interest in what's happening here in Zimbabwe I would just ask him to recall the struggles that went on in South Africa recently, as recently as 14 years ago, when the United States again played a very very critical role in bringing South Africa to its day of independence.

Violet: Are you able to elaborate a bit more on what kind of support or in what ways you are supporting the MDC?

Ambassador McGee: Again we are not supporting, what we do is through civil society. We provide voter education and that's to anyone. On our voter education program we even reached out to ZANU PF and asked if they would like to send their folks to our voter education programs. These are programs designed to talk to voters about their rights and responsibilities under a democracy. This is the same type of program that we have run successfully in many many countries. I was an ambassador in Madagascar before coming here to Zimbabwe and two years ago we ran a very very successful voter education program in that country prior to their elections in 2007 which I must say were very free and very fair and very peaceful.

Violet: Now recent statements made by Tom Casey - a state department official telling "Mugabe to call off his dogs" touched off sensibilities in Zimbabwe with some saying this was insensitive. Would you say that statement was inappropriate?

Ambassador McGee: Absolutely not. I mean what I think was inappropriate is people being killed, people being maimed, people being beaten, taken from their homes, their homes burnt that's what is inappropriate and this is all happening only because of political issues.

Violet: And Dr Frazer reportedly said that the MDC leader was the winner of the presidential race and there is no need for a run-off given the present environment - now this was before the official results had been announced by ZEC. What would be your reaction to the characterization that, that statement is indicative of the US meddling in the national affairs of Zimbabwe ?

Ambassador McGee: Well again, I think my supervisor, and Dr Frazer is my supervisor, has been misquoted. I was at that press conference and what she actually said was that MDC has won a larger total of the vote than President Mugabe and that's brought out by the results that have been announced since then. What Dr Frazer went on to say was that the amount that MDC had won was within the error, the margin of error that was announced by the ZESN the Zimbabwe Electoral Support Network so there was a possibility that he had achieved enough votes to win the election but we had no way to verify it.

Violet: On another issue, US foreign policy has been dented by the Iraq war and there are many who believe that the United States has no clout or moral authority to speak about human rights abuses. How would you respond to this?

Ambassador McGee: We look at human rights abuses very seriously and whenever we hear of allegations of human rights abuses in the United States , we do seriously look into those charges. We have had several in the United States and those have been dealt with. United States will stand on its record against anybody in the world on its ability to deal with human rights issues.

Violet: And the Mugabe regime blames the economic crisis on restrictions imposed by Western countries, do you have sanctions against Zimbabwe ?

Ambassador McGee: No. We do not have sanctions against the country of Zimbabwe . Our sanctions are very, very targeted. We have approximately 500 individuals in Zimbabwe who have targeted sanctions against them. Now the real...(interrupted)

Violet: How... Sorry carry on.

Ambassador McGee: Now the real issue of sanctions is this, the President continues to say that we have sanctions against Zimbabwe and that the country cannot access international lines of credit. The real problem is Zimbabwe has not paid its debts. Zimbabwe owes the World Bank over 600 million dollars, they owe the African Development Bank over 400 million dollars. They have not paid their debts and they are not going to be able to access lines of credit from these lending institutions until they do pay their debt.

Violet: So are these - the targeted sanctions that you have mentioned - are they working because there are some who believe that what they have merely done is to set members of the Mugabe regime more intransigent in their ways?

Ambassador McGee: I would think that these sanctions are very very effective. The majority of the sanctions like visa sanctions have stopped people from travelling to the United States ; the other countries have joined us in those sanctions. We are now looking at additional sanctions that we can impose on individuals that might even include financial sanctions.

Violet: Would the US support an arms embargo?

Ambassador McGee: There is no reason to even think of the arms embargo right now.

Violet: The financial sanctions you mentioned, these will be against individuals in the Mugabe's regime.

Ambassador McGee: That's correct. It's individuals in the regime and individuals who may not even be in the regime but who are supporting, who are responsible for human rights violations here in Zimbabwe.

Violet: I had also heard that you were planning to include army personnel on the list of those on the targeted sanctions list.

Ambassador McGee: That could very well be the case Violet. We are looking at all options opened to us. The bottom line is this; we need to see a stop to the violence. As far as we are concerned it doesn't matter if the person is ZANU, MDC or whoever - military, police here in Zimbabwe . We cannot stand idly by and watch violence take place against the citizens of Zimbabwe without some type of response.

Violet: More on that issue on the violence, if the state apparatus is beating and killing innocent civilians how can the people of Zimbabwe be protected realistically- in other words what more can the region do to help in your view?

Ambassador McGee: Well you know one thing is Zimbabwe is signatory to regional - through SADC and African Union Conventions as well as International Conventions on protection of citizens. And that's one of the few things that we are constantly working on is holding Zimbabwe the government of Zimbabwe up to the conventions that its signatory to. There is no way that this should be going on and the International outcry is going to continue to grow until this violence stops.

Violet: What should be the role of the US in supporting the democratic process in Zimbabwe ? What options do you have now that Mugabe has created a very hostile environment?

Ambassador McGee: The United States doesn't play a role in . (inaudible). We support the democratic environment in Zimbabwe just as we supported the democratic environment in any country around the world. We were very interested in seeing that the will of the people of Zimbabwe is freely expressed and that's what did happen in the last election. Right now it seems that the government is bent on ensuring that will is not allowed to be expressed again.

Violet: Zimbabwe has been extremely damaged. Now given the economic ruin and the state of the social fabric in what ways is the United States committed to rebuilding Zimbabwe ?

Ambassador McGee: Right now we do humanitarian assistance only to Zimbabwe . That is still a massive amount of money Violet. Last year it was well over 200 million dollars in humanitarian assistance that the United States provided to Zimbabwe . $171 million of that was in food assistance and about $30 million in health assistance mainly HIV and AIDS related medications and then 6 to 7.8 million dollars in other areas. But if you look back at the history of the relationship between Zimbabwe and the United States going all the way back to 1980 at Independence, the United States has provided over 1.3 billion dollars to Zimbabwe on a number of programs and most of those programs were developmental programs and they were so successful, so successful that in the mid 90's we started to draw down on our programs in Zimbabwe because Zimbabweans were doing for themselves. There was no longer a need for United States assistance because things were moving along so well in Zimbabwe . But what we have seen here in the last 8 to 9 years is a total reversal of everything that had happened positive for your country in the 28 years since independence.

Violet: So do you believe there is still space for Robert Mugabe in a new Zimbabwe ?

Ambassador McGee: Am sorry I did not hear that question.

Violet: Do you believe there is still space for Robert Mugabe in a new Zimbabwe ?

Ambassador McGee: You know Robert Mugabe was probably what we would say the George Washington of the United States . Robert Mugabe is that same type of character to Zimbabwe . I think there is a place for Robert Mugabe always in the hearts of Zimbabweans. But I do not see any place for Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe as long as we have this government mismanagement and we have these government programs of government sponsored violent.

Violet: Does the U.S. recognize Robert Mugabe as the legitimate Head of State right now?

Ambassador McGee : Of course we do. I mean that's obvious that he is the Head of State of Zimbabwe. As far as we know and I am not an expert on your election laws for Zimbabwe but what I do know is that the cabinet was expected to resign two days prior to the election. Much of the government should have been dissolved before election. Right now I am not certain what authorities anyone who is in government has to continue with that. State has to be run but I think this is more of a caretaker government than anything else.

Violet: And do you have a final word Ambassador?

Ambassador McGee: Stop the violence. The violence here in Zimbabwe there is no need for it, it's politically inspired and it has to stop. If there is anything that we can do, anyone that we can talk to assist in this we are open to doing so. We are open to negotiations, but stop the violence.

Violet: Thank you Ambassador McGee.

Ambassador McGee: Thank you Violet.

Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

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