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Transcript of 'Hot Seat' interview with Margaret Dongo and Wilfred Mhanda - Part 2
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
August 21, 2007

Read Part 1 of this interview

http://swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat230807.htm

Violet Gonda: We continue the discussion from where we left off last week with two former freedom fighters Margaret Dongo and Wilfred Mhanda. The main reason of going to war was to reclaim the land, which was in the hands of the white minority. In this last segment I started by asking Wilfred Mhanda if land went to the majority of the war veterans who spearheaded the farm invasions?

Wilfred Mhanda: We all know if land went to a few war veterans it is a few war veterans but not the majority of the war veterans. Land did not benefit the war veterans. It did not benefit the women. We all know where it went.

Margaret Dongo: It went to the chosen few!

Wilfred Mhanda: It went to the elite!

Margaret Dongo: It went to the chosen few!

Wilfred Mhanda: Ya, the political elite. We all know about that. We also know it's on public record - even the President has said it - a lot of people have got more than one farm. So if really land had benefited the war veterans - they are in such a destitute condition. They live in appalling poverty - the war veterans. You go to the rural areas. If there had been any genuine land reform surely there would be evidence of decongestion? There is nothing like that. Land was merely used as a political resource to enable ZANU PF to hold on to power. We still need genuine land reform that will benefit the people, that would alleviate poverty, that will also support the development of our economy.

Margaret Dongo: Violet have a look. The issue of land is very crucial. I tell you the majority of ex-combatants who have been used to invade the farms today are being harassed and I don't even think they are comfortable there. And I think they have become the poorest people. I don't know if they are doing any farming because the majority them - if you want to ask on the allocation of tractors, how many of them got those tractors? How many of them are getting enough support in terms of implements? How many of them are actually living comfortably. I am telling you the majority of those comrades who invaded the farms were used as guinea pigs. They were just used as frontiers. They were used just like in a slavery situation. To be honest enough lets do an accountability, let's do an inventory to see what went to real comrades.

And in fact I am not happy because when the land invasions happened I was outside the country and I could see the majority of the people who were at the forefront were less than 15 years (old) and some of the people in those farms are 18 years to 20 years (old). And you ask yourself; 'Oh my God at what age did they join the struggle?'

It's unfortunate that people abuse former freedom fighters as well and they use them as frontiers and I want to believe the time will come when the true liberators will take their place because it's high time the comrades sit back and take account of whether there are any benefits they are deriving from the roles that they are playing today. They can't be made as frontiers. So as the issue of the land is concerned - it's a total failure and the majority of the people that are in the farms - if somebody is to be honest enough and take an inventory - you will find that the majority are non ex-combatants. They are relatives of the so called chefs and some of them have more than three farms in different names. So as far as I am concerned comrades have not benefited enough from the land redistribution.

Violet: I understand that even the man who led the violent farm invasions, Chenjerai Hunzvi, did not even get a farm himself.

Margaret Dongo: Let me tell you, it's not a surprise. Margaret Dongo did apply for a farm before the invasions in 1990. But I know I have committed a crime which is not pardoned and I had more than 5/7 applications and I don't even regret not getting the farm. I don't even regret not getting a farm myself. I am quite comfortable being in the rural. Actually I feel as if I am still in the Tribal Trust Lands as I talk today because by virtue of being a former freedom fighter I thought I could benefit but I don't have to kneel down. You know you don't want a situation where you make an application, you start asking for a farm, and the first question is: 'When are you coming back to ZANU PF?"; as if the land belongs to Zanu PF. Isn't it we were fighting for us all to benefit?

So why should you have conditions for one to have a farm? This is when you say to yourself: 'These farms were not distributed fairly.' So at the end of the day it's an issue that needs to be looked into, as far as I am concerened the land issue was a trump card that the current president used to get into power. Just as what happened in America where (President George) Bush used the Iraq war as a trump card; and so has Britain.

I have no respect for people who use people by using such essential and important tools that are supposed to benefit the majority of the people.

Violet: And how would you answer those who ask: "How do we get rid of this despotic regime?" Mr. Mhanda?

Wilfred Mhanda: We are dealing here with a dictatorship, just like the Smith regime - which was also a dictatorship. You don't fight dictatorship through the constitution or free and fair elections; it has never worked and I don't believe it ever will.

We have to grasp reality: there is need for a paradigm shift. What we need is a national political resistance movement. Resisting the suffering and oppression of the people. We need to articulate the actual suffering of the people.

It's good to talk about the rule of law, about the constitution and free and fair elections. But the people have no electricity, they have no fuel, they have no water and no food. Do they have to wait until the elections?! We need to address those issues affecting the people's livelihood and exisitence. As far as we keep focusing on abstract things I think we will have a problem there.

The other problem is - the Zanu PF regime is in government but it is also in the opposition because it seeks to be populist and address maybe people's concerns and capitalising on things like land and privatisation hence crowding out the opposition. So they are both the opposition and the government.

What we now need is to compete with Zanu PF in addressing those issues that concern the people. That is what Mugabe is very good at: he always talks about the suffering of the people while we talk about the constitution - which is good - but we must begin with the people's suffering.

Margaret Dongo: Violet, it's Zimbabweans themselves who want to be taken for a ride. I tell you five years of suffering and if you go back to 2000 and what we have been going through in terms of the economic hardships; you tell me that the next six months running up to the elections will bring economic change here in Zimbabwe? At the end of the day, it is the Zimbabweans themselves who are prepared to be taken for a ride.

I think it's high time to say enough is enough. There is no where in Africa where you can have free and fair elections. If you look at Zambia and Malawi, you will see the same cry; but at the end of the day Zambia and Malawi were able to change their leadership. So has Kenya! Why can't we Zimbabweans come together and say enough is enough; that's what we are looking at because if we wait for the ground to be levelled, it will never happen! These people will never quit, don't you remember (the late Vice President Simon) Muzenda saying: 'Tichatonga kusvika dhongi ramera nyanga'? (We shall rule until a donkey grows horns!") So don't forget his words. If we remain as we are, we are likely to have problems.

I will put it to the Zimbabweans themselves to actually go back and digest and say: 'What is it that we want? What is the future Zimbabwe that we want and what is the leadership that we need to put in place?'

As far as the political field - forget about it because Zanu PF is there to maintain power and to protect it ruthlessly. That we should know. Anyone who has been in opposition politics knows this is not a luxurious field for one to enjoy themselves. It's an uphill struggle so people have to accept that one day the system has to be changed. And it is up to the people.

If the people are still reluctant to change the system as if they are happy, what then can we do? Because there is no way one person can lead without the people. Everything is up to the people. Government is composed of people not leadership so if people say they don't want it, they have to remove it.

You don't go into the ballot booth with a stick behind you neither will anyone know what you put on the ballot paper. You can make threats outside the booth, but once I am in there I know what to do.

That's the slogan we should make Violet!

Whatever threats they make, even if they don't give me food but when I get to that ballot box, I will teach them a lesson!

Violet: But how do you mobilise the masses to say enough is enough, Mai Dongo?

Margaret Dongo: That's the problem. There is no activity on the the ground as we speak. Zanu PF is busy registering people in the rural areas. I have been round in the rural areas and there are no NGOs that are talking about voter education right now. Wait until its six months before the elections and you will find a lot of NGOs mushrooming doing voter and civic education and yet this should have started when the last election ended. But nothing has been happening. Everyone has been sleeping in their beds only hoping to wake up six months before the election and then there will be traffic congestion; NGOs here, political parties there; and yet this is the time when civic educators should be out there. This is the time when NGOs are raising political awareness; this is the time when they should be encouraging people to go and register.

And now what is happening is that Zanu PF has structures and they are simply abuse those structures, even the traditional structures to go and register their own people. There is no one out there Violet, I have been there in the rurals and I haven't seen anyone from the opposition coming to ask for assistance to see how they can actually communicate with the people. No one! You see the four wheel drive vehicles are here causing more potholes on the roads in towns instead of people going to the rural areas to raise political awareness.

It is you and I who should be responsible for raising voter awareness. Not to wait for the NGO alone again. I blame myself for that. I also have a role and Zimbabweans have a role.

Wait until Zimbabweans are able to sponsor their own political parties and they will choose the party to lead them. But because right now those (political parties) that have the advantage of the international community's financial favour, they are getting funding, so they don't feel any pain at all. But if it was the Zimbabweans themselves taking up the challenge, they would choose the right leadership.

Violet: Mr. Mhanda, you've done this before as a commander of the liberation forces. How can the people be mobilised to fight as one, what is your advice and suggestions?

Wilfred Mhanda: First of all we should understand, comprehend or appreciate the nature of the challenge that we face. Like I said, we are dealing with a dictatorship here, just like Ian Smith. Unfortunately, unlike the other countries that Margaret Dongo was talking about - Zambia, Malawi and Kenya - they never had liberation movements. They had nationalist movements. They never fought a war. So, the machinery to support the establishment was not that partisan whereas here in Zimbabwe it was totally different. What we need is to understand the nature of the challenge: people have been optimistic thinking every year they are going to win. But just like Margaret Dongo said we need to climb down from the ninth cloud to the ground and understand that here is a real challenge: Mugabe is not going to give up power that easily. That is point number one.

And you're not going to dislodge him through conventional opposition politics. What we then need after we have identified and appreciated the nature of the challenge that we face; is to map up a strategy and a national rallying point - a unifying agenda like fighting for liberation, fighting for emanicipation.

We talk a lot about the Smith regime but hardly about the Rhodesian Front which was Smith's political party. We talk about the Smith regime; and even if we captured some of their fighters we conceded they were victims of propaganda. So the message we should be telling the people is that we are all victims of this dictatorship including members of Zanu PF!

But we are actually reinforcing the polarisation because that is the way of conventional politics: them and us! We need to be united; then we mobilise the people and organise them, give them direction and then leadership. At the moment there's no mobilisation, there's no organisation , there's no direction and as for leadership, I leave that to the people to see if they have the leadership to lead them through this struggle.

Violet: (To Mhanda) So where are people like you, what are you doing, why can you not participate in the mobilisation and the leadership - in the things that you are talking about?

Wilfred Mhanda: I am not a politician right now. I have not formed a political party, but like I said...

Margaret Dongo: Mhanda!

Violet: (Interjects) Do you have to be a politician though?

Wilfred Mhanda: No, no, no, no. What you need is a national political resistance movement that unites people against the dictatorship. Not one that reinforces the polarisation putting the police here, the army there and Zanu PF there and we are here. You will not get anywhere! I don't know if you get my message!?

Violet: Amai Dongo, do you get his message...

Margaret Dongo: (interjects) Mhanda can not give an excuse that because he is not a politician he can not play a role. This is the problem that we have: Mhanda was a commander in the liberation struggle. Mhanda should use the strategy that he used to mobilise people to join hands during the struggle. What strategy did they use during the struggle to convince the masses to join hands? How did they train the masses?

I will not pardon him for that! I do not know his defination for politics. It doesn't mean you have to hold political office to be able to help develop your country or develop the people in your country. You have a role to play.

Mhanda knows the slogan we used to have in the struggle: "Iwe neni tine basa." (You and I have a duty to liberate Zimbabwe.) So what is your role Mhanda? Mhanda should play a role as well. Those strategies we used then, should be used again today in the rural areas to educate the people.

If Mhanda were to go today to the rural areas; and I and the former freedom fighter were to go as well; and tell the people that this is not what we fought for, we are now living in abject poverty why don't we go back and redirect the new struggle? Then we will get there!!

Violet: I am afraid Mr. Mhanda I must agree (with Margaret Dongo) and put my personal thoughts into this. Having heard what people say on this forum, many talk in the third person or as observers; but what about you as a person, what role can you play in this struggle?

Wilfred Mhanda: I am a victim of oppression and the dictatorship in Zimbabwe. Single-handedly there's nothing I can do on my own.

Violet: definately

Wilfred Mhanda: I will have to work with other forces bent on change. But then you'll need to agree on certain things. If people are obssessed with conventional opposition politics, I'm sorry to say they will have to exhaust that phase. Just like the nationalists who hoped they would get independence through the constitution. Eventually they exhausted those platforms. Do you understand what I am saying?! Zanu and Zapu both wanted to go for the elections negotiating with Britain; it was only much later that they realised that this is not the route to take. Do you understand what I am talking about Violet?

Violet: Uh huh. Are you saying that conventional opposition politics is not the way to go but that Mugabe is going to need a stick?

Wilfred Mhanda: I am saying conventional opposition politics will not solve this problem.

Violet: So what should happen?

Wilfred Mhanda: If there's a critical mass of people who share that point of view that is fine. If people can not agree with me, what can I do, I can't force people?

Violet: Now Mr. Mhanda, some have said ultimately change will come from the army. Do you agree with this?

Wilfred Mhanda: It will be wrong and I don't agree with that. It is actually escapism, just like Margaret Dongo here; thay are shying away from their responsibility to bring about change. Why do you look up to the army? They are constitutionally compromised to take party in politics, play elective role. Why do you wish to make them the torch-bearers of the struggle? They like everyone else are victims of this dictatorship.

But our message is actually to say all the security forces, the police, the army are Mugabe's people, which is not bringing people together. I was telling you that during the war even when we captured Smith's forces we said they were victims being used; and tried to win them over.

We are not trying to win anyone over, we are trying to reinforce the polarisation So it is wrong to expect the army to take the lead. This is a political struggle, it is the people who are suffering, yes the army and the security forces are also victims, but why should they shoulder the responsiblitiy of liberating the country. Because then we will only bring another dictatorship. And what will you do with that dictatorship if it comes from the military? It will not be liberation in the end.

Violet: But you know we have heard so many reports in the past few months about coup plots and attempts. Is there a likelihood of a coup in Zimbabwe?

Wilfred Mhanda: I'd say the chances are very remote. The security forces seem committed to a constitutional route. There's been discontent and disgruntlement within the military; but reports of coup were actually manufactured to scare any thoughts of a coup being entertained within the military. I wouldn't think that if there was a coup it would fail if they really wanted to do that. It would have actually succeded. But I am not a proponent or advocate for military coups because I don't support that, I don't support military governments, it is the people who have to be stakeholders in their struggle. We have to democratise the struggle, not to be by-standers and then expect to exercise our rights afterwards, no! Don't let the army participate. Actually forbid them. Say: "We don't want you to take the lead!"

Violet: What about you Mai Dongo, what are your thoughts on the role of the army? And also, how strong a hold do you think Mugabe has on the security forces?

Margaret Dongo: I don't even foresee a military rule in this country. Because the army have a separate role to play in defending the country and they are supposed to be in the baracks and out there defending the country. The idea of a coup was meant to further frighten the people of Zimbabwe; that there's war coming again up if you do not do a,b, c, d; and e! I don't think even the army commanders themselves would ever dream of that because the question is; do they have the capacity to rule? That's the question, because it doesn't mean when you held a gun or when you hold a gun you can be the best leader. Not at all. There are quite a number of issues to consider when you are talking about leadership and when you talk about running a country. So I rule out the issue of a coup. That is mere speculation and meant to frighten people and it does frighten the people to some extent and this is the motive. I rule that out.

Violet: In your view, is Mugabe in charge of the security forces or the security forces are in charge of Mugabe?

Margaret Dongo: It's very difficulty to tell because the army is made up of people like myself; and they are going through the economic hardships just like any other person in Zimbabwe. They also have different feeling about the governance today. So its very difficult to tell who is in control. You might be surprised that a former army commander might be in control or somebody else; a colonel or a major. It's possible it depends on who has the power to convince people but at the end of the day, when it comes to control, you can not guarantee control in an environment which we have toady where you even have soldiers who are not happy about their salaries and are struggling even though they are doing a steerling effort to defend their country and those in power. So it's not something to talk about.

Violet: What can you say about this because its been said that Mugabe has support from the generals and commanders like Perence Shiri and Constantine Chiwenga? Does he actually have support of the rank and file?

Wilf Mhanda: Of course it is the constitutional responsibility of the army to be loyal to the head of state, one would not expect otherwise. It would actually be foolhardy to imagine a situation where you have security forces sworn to the constitution to be openly opposed to the head of state. I think that one is a none starter. In terms of the state itself, there's one key decision-making institution responsible for running this country; that is The Joint Operations Command (JOC). It comprises mostly of security forces though its role is largely advisory. They don't give instructions nor take political decision. It could actually be acceptable. What they advice or the nature of their advice, we cannot tell. We do not know. We are not privy to the goings-on.

They may be totally be opposed to what is happening but they have no other avenues because of the nature of their duties; and they have sworn loyalty to the constitution.

It however doesn't mean to say they are not human beings, just like Margret was saying. They are suffering like everybody else but it would not be proper for them to be the first to air any discontent as it will be tantamount to a mutiny.

They would rather keep things close to themselves, play their cards closely to themselves because the moment that is known; surely the head of state will be justified and legalluy too, to take action against them! So they are in a very compromised position. I don't envy their position at all. And that does not mean that they are supportive of the current situation.

Violet: But It has been reported that that JOC will help Mugabe campaign in the next election.

Wilf Mhanda: Have the sources of that information been authenticated. They could very well be coming from Zanu PF or government itself; with the aim of intimidating people just like these coup stories which have not been authenticated. Is it possible!?

As far as I know they (JOC members) don't sit in the Zanu PF politiburo. We know Zanu PF takes decisions and gives instructions to cabinet. But it is not JOC that gives instructions to cabinet or the politiburo as such.

Violet: Is it so difficult or to believe that the army could do this for Robert Mugabe because the security forces have been accused of helping the government to suppress dissent and to beat up people and to brutalise the masses?

Wilf Mhanda: What I can openly say is that the police and the central intelligence has been compromised. We all know that. They brutalise the people, they arrest people on a daily basis. That is quite open. But we do not have similar evidence with regard to the army. There could be members of the military who are are also used but as for the police its an open record, we know that. They and the CIO are Zanu PF militants. But I can not say the same about the military.

Violet: So Amai Dongo, what accounts for Mugabe's staying power?

Margaret Dongo: The way I see Mugabe is that he is a strategist who knows how to dance to the people's tune. Look at the recent policies that they have just put in place. Look at the price slash, it was meant to woe the majority of the people who are not happy with the economy. And for him he did it purposely to try and please whathe called the poor people. His mistake was that it wasn't the poor people who benefited. So, at times when he does his interventions and wakes up on the wrong side of the bed, he just makes up a decision and to him it doesn't matter who is affected as long as its for his political gains.

Mugabe is a person who knows how to divide and rule and this is seen in the Zanu PF structures as well where he has caused divisions: there are the wanted few and then there are the ones regarded as rebels with the ZANU PF structures.

By so doing, those who didn't take part in the liberation struggle are taken aboard his band wagon becoming the new messiahs, the favoured few. These now find themselves at the top positions and kneel before Mugabe telling him: 'Mr. President, all is well, we want you back'; merely because they want to be protected. It;s now time for all the former freddom fighters to come together and ask themselves what they have benefited under Zanu PF; as well as the chimbwidos (war collaborators), together with the masses in order to find a strategy. What is required is for people to join hands and speak with one voice because we have had enough.

Violet: And Mr. Mhanda, final word...

Wilf Mhanda: I'd agree with Margret with regard to Mugabe's staying power. He understands power, he's a populist; and he knows how to manipulate people. He is good at grand-standing and at rhetoric. He is an opportunist politically and he's also extraordinarily good at choosing his leuitanants and subbordinants who are loyal to him. He invokes loyalty from his supporters and also patronage is his key instrument. But partronage is not that he gives you something in return to loyalty, it's actually based on impunity. Its that: 'You can do anything and get away with it.' In other words: 'enrich yourself, break the law, do whatever you like and I will turn the other way as long as you are loyal.' That's the key strategy used by Robert Mugabe. And it has been working well, but people need to know that. The need is actually to isolate him and his inner circle! And get everyone else to see that it's not good for the country including those in Zanu PF, including those security forces. Not to say: 'Oh those people support Mugabe, they are in Zanu PF, war veterans..." No, no, no, no. We will not get anywhere like that.

Violet Gonda: Thank you very much Mr. Mhanda and Amai Dongo

Dongo and Mhanda: Thank you Violet!

Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa 's Hot Seat programme (21 August 07). Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

NB: SW Radio Africa is back on MULTIPLE frequencies. Broadcasts are between 7:00 and 9:00 pm Zimbabwe time on shortwave; in the 25m band 11775kHz, 11810kHz, 12035kHz and in the 60m band 4880kHz. Also via the internet at www.swradioafrica.com

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