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Transcript of 'Hot Seat' interview with Margaret Dongo and Wilfred Mhanda
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
August 14, 2007

Read Part 2 of this interview

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat150807.htm

Violet Gonda: The scheduled programme with Dr. John Makumbe will be flighted at a later date. Instead we bring you a Heroes Day debate with two former freedom fighters. Is the day still significant given the current crisis? On the 11 th of August Zimbabweans commemorate Heroes Day, an event meant to honour the thousands who died fighting in the liberation war against the colonial regime led by Ian Smith. But events in Zimbabwe have rendered the occasion meaningless due to a crisis of governance that has produced hunger, hyper-inflation, state sponsored violence and oppression at the hands of the same government that was supposed to liberate Zimbabweans.

Many see no significance in commemorating Heroes Day since what the heroes fought for - freedom - is now lost? My guests on the programme Hot Seat today are; Wilfred Mhanda, who is a former liberation war senior commander & former director of the Zimbabwe Liberators Platform. He is one of the people personally responsible for bringing Robert Mugabe to power; and Margaret Dongo a co-founder of the National Liberation War Veterans' Association and the first woman to stand as an independent in Zimbabwe . Amai Dongo was also the first woman to successfully challenge the electoral system in the High Court. Welcome on the programme Hot Seat.

Margaret Dongo : Thank you very much Violet.

Wilfred Mhanda: Thank you Violet.

Violet: Now I'm going to start with Wilfred Mhanda. If Josiah Tongogara and Herbert Chitepo were alive, what do you think they would say about what's happening in Zimbabwe right now.

Wilfred Mhanda: Naturally, they would be pained at the suffering that the people are going through. This is totally opposed to what they would have hoped that liberation would have ushered into free Zimbabwe . People would have been free, there should have been adequate food, we would not be worrying about water, we would not be worrying about electricity, fuel and so forth. Definitely it's more or less like an anti climax in terms of that. But what I'm saying is that we always focus on people like Tongogara and Chitepo. I think our war of liberation started earlier in the 1890's. We should also be asking 'what would Nehanda be asking, what would Chaminuka, what would Lobengula be asking?' It's the suffering of the people. It's the suffering of the people. They would not be happy. No liberation fighter would be happy with the suffering of the people that the people are going through right now.

Violet: And Amai Dongo, have the tenants of freedom been eroded?

Margaret Dongo: Have a look Violet, what I would want to respond to first is the question you have asked my colleague. I think when you look at leaders, if you look at Zimbabwe today, my answer would be unpredictable. It's very difficult to tell what a person would do in future. What our current President is doing today is not what he used to do before. So people change with the environment and with the situation prevailing at that time. So I wouldn't say Tongogara would have been the best but I want to believe that the ideals of the liberation struggle, if one was to follow that then there would actually be a best leader. But for me to say Tongogara would have done better, I don't agree because human beings are like wind, they can change the direction. You know how wind blows.

Violet: And, Mr. Mhanda, what do you make of what Amai Dongo has just said? People change with time. Now you were together in the struggle with the likes of people like Robert Mugabe, has he changed, or he's always been like this?

Wilfred Mhanda: As far as I am concerned, I would not say he has. From my understanding of the man himself, beginning in the 1976 when I first met him he has hardly changed. It's people's perception of him that has changed. He has not changed as far as I am concerned. He has always been relentless, focused on power and consolidating power, nothing else. In that regard he hasn't changed.

Violet: So now, many people in Zimbabwe feel there is nothing to celebrate when it comes to Heroes Day commemorations, do you agree with this vaMhanda?

Wilfred Mhanda: I would not agree with that. It's time for reflection; the sacrifices, the pain that we went through to bring about the Independence that people are so proud of. We might talk of the suffering and so forth, but at least we are an independent country and a sovereign country that Mugabe boasts about. So I would say it's not a question of saying that we should not think about that period, we should not reflect about the sacrifice that people made. I would go as far as to say that what is painful is that whilst we remember the sacrifices made by the former liberation fighters, we should also not forget the atrocities committed by the Rhodesians, by Ian Smith. These have been conveniently forgotten. Ian Smith is a free man, he has not been called to account for murdering and killing innocent young children, men and women. That is a painful experience to me. We should not only think of the sacrifice but also we are reminded of the atrocities and also the cruelty of the regime that we were fighting against.

Violet: But sadly, some people say the situation under Ian Smith was actually much better than the situation right now in a new Zimbabwe .

Wilfred Mhanda: I would not agree with that. It's better to be a free man. It's better to suffer in freedom. It's better to have your own dignity. Here, we are abusing our own selves. We were fighting against colonialism, we can never wish to be anybody's colony; be it British or American. The responsibility should be ours. We have let things degenerate and deteriorate to that. But it should not get us to the point of saying 'it was better to be under Ian Smith'. I respect my own dignity; I was not treated as a person during Smith's era. Of course, admittedly, in terms of the suffering, some of the suffering is exactly the same; the abuse of power, the abuse of human rights, it's exactly the same. But, when you look probably at the material conditions in terms of people being able to make ends meet, like in the urban areas, comparatively, people fared better that time, but not in terms of the whole nation.

Violet: Amai Dongo, what are your thoughts on this, is there anything to celebrate?

Margaret Dongo: Violet, this is a very important day to Zimbabweans, and this is the only time they can acknowledge the role, the outstanding role, that was played by the former freedom fighters with no regrets. It's also time to reflect on the future and the past, and I think what people need to do is to separate issues here. A Heroes day is a Heroes day and it has a meaning. To both, be it opposition, be it the ruling party, even Ian Smith should actually be joining hands because he has his own heroes as well, which he calls heroes who were fighting against us. It is actually the greatest moment that you can also use to remember them because they also played a role in protecting his power. So, this is the day which brings us all together.

I think the problems that we have as Zimbabweans, we abuse certain platforms, and that's the dilemma that I see. We abuse certain platforms. This platform is meant to remember the fallen heroes irregardless of what is said but I think more so, we also need to remember that even here, there are heroes who didn't hold a gun; people like Jairos Jiri are important factors in my life. There are so many heroes that we can talk about and that's the only time that we can remember them all. Even my father, he is a hero, he is late. That's the only time when I can join hands and I can commemorate, I can remember, I can begin to begin to reflect on how he has played his role. My father was a politician as well and it's not only the leaders who should be remembered, but every individual who made a contribution towards the liberation of this country should be remembered today. So people should learn to separate issues and should learn to use the different platforms appropriately. I think the problem is that people make mistakes, several mistakes, in terms of abusing ma platforms akadai (these kind of platforms).

So, I see it from a separate perspective. The idea of commemorating a hero is, for us, an opportunity to reflect on the future and the past. And, as far as I'm concerned, now we need to concentrate on the future and find whether we have achieved what we fought for. Like, for instance, you look at the ideals of the liberation struggle, you know, they have been betrayed. Why? The people have gone there and they are pursuing their individual interests and now they are sacrificing the public. They are sacrificing the masses that they were fighting to liberate. Now, at the end of the day, this is why when you hear people say Smith was better off. But I don't regret being a freedom fighter and I don't regret having fought the colonialists you know. I'm saying, yes, we could even be better than the times of Smith. That's what we should be crying for. There's nothing to compare there.

Violet: So, do you feel that the struggle has been hijacked and if so, by who?

Margaret Dongo: To some extent, yes, it has been hijacked and I put that problem, I think, to the leader of this country. Because, what I've notice and what I've experienced, in my life, both in politics and in having been a former ZANU PF member, and a former Central Committee member, is that you know the actual heroes, the actual fighters, have been sidelined for no apparent reason. If you look today people that are spearheading the ideals of the liberation struggle, some of them have no background. Some of them are opportunists. Some of them are not committed. You know, it's different from the nationalist movement, the graduates or people that we used to have. You know, the level of commitment is quite different from the level of commitment that the current leaders have. It's like they behave like celebrities. For me, if you look at the structures today, this country has been destroyed, not by Mugabe as an individual but by Zimbabweans themselves and the leadership is in place today. Because, one, it's full of liars, crooks and people who are selfish, people who are not honest.

I'm telling you today if Mugabe was what he was before, I think things would be different. I think Mugabe wouldn't want to be flown to Mhondoro, only for 147kms instead of driving through the normal roads and see the damage that has been caused, both in the farms and the roads that are not being repaired. You will be surprised if he is to drive to Chihota there and see what is there practically on the ground. But what happens with his leadership achef (when he is chef) and then you fly him and he doesn't see what is happening on the ground. On the other hand, yes, you may blame it on him but the leaders that are surrounding on him, I'm telling you I have no regret for that, I think he has to seriously review that.

Violet: But, Amai Dongo, according to Mr. Mhanda, Mugabe has not really changed and this is how he was during the war, and, Mr. Mhanda says its people's perception of him that has actually changed. What can you say about that?

Margaret Dongo: He has changed, as far as I'm concerned, he has changed because it is not the Mugabe that we used to know who would say 'please don't eat before the kids eat'. I don't think he would still repeat that statement or do that in practice. He was a person who was selfless. He was a Mugabe that you would see putting on shorts and mingling with people. Not rich people only but you could see him sitting with people and discussing problems and so forth. But now, for a rural person coming from Chipinga the bureaucracy that he has to go through just to shake his hand is not easy. He has changed to me, even the behavioral. He has changed his behaviour in terms of how he looks at the ordinary masses. It's something that he reads from the newspapers and also gets from the reports from his commanders or from his leadership. Whereas, some of these things, he has honestly one day to wake up and say I want to drive to Mhondoro and I want to drive through St Michael's road and see how it is, whether there is development, and see how things are, practically. Or, say, one day 'I want to drive to Chipinga or I want to drive to Tsholotsho', rather than him being flown. And my worry is that the Mugabe that we used to know would actually drive in those dusty roads and go to Chimoio and so forth and not come to Chimoio by chopper.

So I still feel that he has changed his behaviour and to some extent he has lost track, even though I would have respect for him that he is principled. You know, when I say that he is principled, once a dictator and you say you want to pursue your dictatorship and you don't hide and you tell them the truth that this is what I want and this is my line of thinking and this is my style of leadership. I hate hypocrites who pretend and say we can do this and on the other hand tomorrow they turn up to be something. Mugabe is ruling the way he is and the way he would like to rule. And, I blame Zimbabwean people for that and I don't blame him, because he is not voted in by animals; he is voted in by human beings. Even if you talk about the rigging Violet, Violet if 14 million people are tired of him they should go and register that they are tired. Why is it that we still have pockets of people that go there and endorse him? That's my question.

Violet: Mr. Mhanda, how can you answer that question?

Wilfred Mhanda: As far as I'm concerned, I would say Margaret Dongo is talking about maybe Mugabe's behaviour in Mozambique and so. Those were the resources that were available. He could not drive by chauffeur; he could not have a Mercedes Benz, but, the moment he got his hands on the levers of power, that's all he wanted. He was actually courting support and making sure that he gets what he wanted. He was pretending, he was an imposter - pretending to be someone who is caring. I cannot blame the people around Mugabe because no one can impose on Mugabe to pick anybody, to choose anybody. He chose those people freely of his own free will, people like (Patrick) Chinamasa, people like Jonathan Moyo. Surely it's Mugabe himself who wanted them, it's his own choice. I would not blame the people of Zimbabwe , he makes these choices on his own, because he has got the power and he has deliberately sidelined the people who participated in the liberation struggle. It's his choice. He is not forced by anybody to do that. He's only revealing his true colours. As we say in Shona rino nyenga rinowarira. He was only courting support. But we are now seeing the true Mugabe himself who doesn't care about anybody and people's suffering, he doesn't care about anything. He was pretending to be somebody with principles, who was concerned about peoples suffering, but deep down, he was just masquerading as somebody who is a revolutionary. As far as I am concerned, he has never been a revolutionary and he has never cared about peoples' suffering!

Violet: But what about this other issue that Amai Dongo raised, that if 14 million people are fed up with him, why don't they just go and vote him out.

Wilfred Mhanda: Do we have a level playing field for people to do that? If people go into the streets they are beaten; they are tortured for no reason; they spend weeks and months, surely that's intimidation? You will find that the Zimbabwe Republic Police, the Central Intelligence Organisation, have been reduced to a party militia to support him. Why does he need this protection? Who is running the electoral machinery, electoral management system? They are all hand picked by Mugabe, they are all state security agents. So there is no avenue for change through the ballot box, he has literally blocked that. So, I wouldn't blame the people. Look, for example in the urban areas, where people have a greater chance of voicing their opinion. ZANU PF has difficulty in controlling the urban areas. It is said that ZANU PF has got support in the rural areas, but I dispute that because that is exactly where you get those rogue war veterans and youth brigades and also the blackmailing of chiefs and headmen. That's not popular support, that's coercion, that's not support!

Violet: So do you think nationalism has been commodified by ZANU PF?

Wilfred Mhanda : As far as I am concerned, Mugabe is a nationalist. I'm not a nationalist and I was never a nationalist. Nationalists were just fighting against colonialism to substitute colonial regimes with themselves. The political movements like the ANC of South Africa, ZANU, ZAPU, the ANC of Zimbabwe, they were all nationalist movements which later transformed into liberation movements. Being a liberation movement is qualitatively higher that being a nationalist movement. Structurally, the goal of nationalism is not very progressive. It doesn't aim and it doesn't have as its goal - the transformation of society to serve the people's needs. It just has at its goal the elite; the black elite; stepping into the white elite. That is the problem we have had in Africa which has ended up in re-enforcing neo colonialism. So, I really don't subscribe to the notion of nationalism. Actually I would say ZANU has regressed from being a liberation movement to a nationalist movement where it had begun in the 1960's.

Violet: So what actually happened in the war, can you briefly tell us briefly about this because there is so much contention about Robert Mugabe's leadership?

Wilfred Mhanda: How Mugabe got there, he was part of the leadership of ZANU which comprised Ndabaningi Sithole, Leopold Takawira, Mugabe himself and Chitepo. These were the top four. When the top four, when the other three were out of the way, it was only Mugabe who then ascended to the leadership of ZANU, that's how it happened, it was in terms of the protocol within ZANU itself. It was not like he was imposed as such, but he was part of that leadership. With the other three not being there, he was the most senior ZANU leader available. He merely filled that position.

Violet: What role did you play in this?

Wilfred Mhanda: The role that I played in that, together with my other colleagues, was that we had first hand experience of problems and difficulties of working with the founding President of ZANU, that was Ndabaningi Sithole, and when we discussed this problem with the external leadership of ZANU, that was the Dare Re Chimurenga, that was formerly headed by the late Chitepo, it became clear that the founding President was no longer committed to the founding principles of the organisation and also to the liberation struggle itself; to the armed struggle. It was their view and our view as well that there was a need to continue the war in view of the detente exercise unleashed by Ian Smith and Vorster. And therefore there was need to have a leadership that subscribed to those founding principles of the organisation and it was the view of the external leadership of ZANU that the best person to do that was Robert Mugabe.

I as a member of the military, merely followed the instructions from the political leadership in terms of paving the way of Robert Mugabe to get to the leadership, to the political leadership, which involved persuading the leaders of the Frontline states, President Nyerere and also President Samora Machel, to let him free, to let him assume his position as leader. So, I was merely implementing the decisions that had been taken by the political leadership.

Violet: And, if you had your way and knowing what you know now, would you have done things differently?

Wilfred Mhanda : That's a good question, knowing that we were . . . It's more or less, for example, Ndabaningi Sithole was the founding President of ZANU, and we had problems with him. We were convinced that he was not serving the best interests of both the party and the country. If I was convinced of the fact that Robert Mugabe was also going to betray the liberation ideals and to betray the trust bestowed upon him by the party and the people, definitely, I would not have supported his ascendance to power.

Violet: And, Amai Dongo, what was it like for a women in the struggle? You know, can you briefly describe the conditions for a woman fighter. And, that after all that women went through during the struggle is the loss of their lives vindicated?

Margaret Dongo: It's a sad story, because if I look at the position of where we are today as women fighters, I am still not satisfied, I am not still happy. Because, if you go back to the history of the liberation struggle, you know there is this tendency of abuse. And, I feel that abuse has even extended to Zimbabwe as well. You know in the struggle women were treated equally, in terms of training - you received the same training, you received the same treatment in terms of other things. But if you look at the situation that we have today you find that it is also getting back in the sense that if you look at the abuse, I will tell; during the liberation struggle women went through terrible times. Young girls were also being abused. The abuse that you find here also happened during the struggle where you would find chefs also coming in and abusing young girls and so forth.

But also, if you look at the dividends of the liberation struggle, you say OK, what are the benefits that women got through the liberation struggle. There is very little because the women are to be chosen, leaders are chosen and a few managed and the majority are still living in abject poverty. If you look at the majority of ex-combatants, honestly some of them are living in abject poverty. Only when it comes to elections that is when you hear much of their publicity. After elections you don't hear anything. And also, you know when you say you are liberated - when you say that women at least are treated equally - you will find a situation right now where there are laws that should have been repealed a long time back to give power to women to exercise their rights. I will give you an example, the Guardianship Act, the Guardianship Act doesn't allow a woman to sign for travelling documents for her child. Think of it, nine months - and let alone you are allowed to sign any health certificates - but you don't have the power to sign just a paper, what is in a paper? And you are going back to a number of things that have to be reviewed and also, the leaders in Zimbabwe , both ruling party and the opposition political parties, it's like they were born by one mother. The way they treat women, you know, it's like a privilege in terms of position. If one is promoted to a position she becomes a queen bee and that queen bee syndrome arises and she forgets and she treats herself like a man among other men instead of remembering to say the role that I'm supposed to play is that I have to uplift other women.

So, they've done it purposefully, to make sure they create this divide and rule. If you look at how many women are in leadership positions today, both public and private sector, you will find pockets where women are in control, but not full control, but still they have to be governed by the men again. So you find if you talk about women being liberated, I think, at the end of the day women have to liberate themselves as well have to take a position to say this is what we want to see happen. But you find that some of the problems we create them on our own because we have a role, we should be partnership in whatever we do, even in governance. You know this idea of having the Women's Affairs, has further reduced us because we have problems in every sector, be it private sector, public sector, in agriculture, in land, we need access to land, we also have economic problems. We should be involved everywhere as human beings. The moment we sideline ourselves and we say 'we are a Women's League', then they will create special packages for us and make sure that they will create the packages that they want us to have.

Violet: And you mentioned about the suffering during the war, if you don't mind, are you able to elaborate a little bit more about what sort of abuse you are talking about, just for the benefit of our listeners.

Margaret Dongo: There were young girls who went, who made babies and some of them, those babies are from the so called leaders and they have never bothered to follow up and to maintain those children. And, in actual fact, when you are in the war, there is no rule of war, the law there is what we call jungle law and you can't report to anyone that someone has raped me, because there is no mother, there is no father, there is no any judiciary system. So, you find even those who had babies, they didn't have babies because of their own liking. They didn't prepare to have babies, neither did they go to the struggle to make babies but some of them were unfortunate victims. And this is what happened, and that's a fact, anyone who wants to challenge me, you are free to challenge me, but the truth of the matter today, even if some of my friends who are listening they could actually recall to say OK, this is the time when I lost my virginity and I didn't lose it because I wanted, but because I was forced into it and I had no one to report to. It did happen and anyway it's a thing of the past and I want to believe in every war situation, it does happen. But, I'm saying that happened and it should not continue because we are still having the cases of rape, rapists here and so forth. So, such things, the government and citizens of Zimbabwe should have a stop to it.

Violet: Mr. Mhanda, your thoughts on this?

Mr. Mhanda: Ya, the liberation struggle was not exactly a bed of roses and I think we need to come to terms with our past; to come clean with the past. A number of atrocities and excesses were also experienced or perpetrated during the liberation struggle. And, unfortunately it is taboo to discuss the details of the day to day goings on during the liberation struggle, the victimisation, rape and so forth. But what we are saying, it is us, the former fighters themselves who should take the lead in opening this chapter, in coming to terms with this and actually acknowledging where mistakes were made, but unfortunately we don't have that opportunity. The people who monopolise chronicling about the liberation struggle are people like (George) Charamba who was no where near there, or you had Jonathan (Moyo) doing all that, or you had Sikhanyiso Ndlovu, or (Tichaona) Jokonya controlling information and this and that, then there would be no chance that people would actually get to the bottom of what happened. Because, if our own colleagues were in control of some of these key ministries, it would actually pave the way for people to talk about it. Unfortunately, we also have responsible women in leadership positions, like Margaret has been saying, very senior people, women comrades, but they forget about everyone else because it's now fine for them. They should spearhead the coming clean about that. Whilst we condemn what happened during the Smith regime, if anything also was wrong, we should speak openly out about it, come clean about it. From the era of colonialism, Smith regime, liberation struggle to Mugabe, let us call a spade a spade. We need to do that. It's painful to know that these atrocities actually happened, not only in Mozambique , in some cases, even in the liberation, in the war zone. We need to talk about it but there is no forum because we don't have control over the leavers of power to make sure that something is done about it.

Violet Gonda: And, be sure not to miss the concluding discussion with the two former freedom fighters next Tuesday. We will find out why Wilf Mhanda believes why conventional politics and a new constitution won't change things in Zimbabwe and we will also hear Margaret Dongo's views on what accounts for Mugabe's staying power.

Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa 's Hot Seat programme (14 August 07). Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

NB: SW Radio Africa is back on MULTIPLE frequencies. Broadcasts are between 7:00 and 9:00 pm Zimbabwe time on shortwave; in the 25m band 11775kHz, 11810kHz, 12035kHz and in the 60m band 4880kHz. Also via the internet at www.swradioafrica.com

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