Back to Index

Transcript of interview of President Thabo Mbeki
Comment, Financial Times (UK)
April 12, 2007

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2007/04/12/2504178.htm

FT: There was an important regional summit in Dar es Salaam and you have been given a mandate to mediate on a solution to this crisis. How are you intending to find a solution and how is your role different from four years ago when you were given a similar role?

President Mbeki: Well, the first thing I would like to say is that the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Summit said there are three major areas of concern to the region about Zimbabwe. One of them is the political situation; second is the economic situation; and the third is Zimbabwe's international relations. It said that the region had to address all three matters.

The Summit decided that with regard to the political issues, the critical intervention that it needs to make is to encourage the ruling party and the opposition to enter into the necessary dialogue to find a solution to those political problems.

And secondly, with regard to the economic ones, it directed the Secretariat of SADC to make a proper assessment of the economic challenges that Zimbabwe faces, so that as the region we could then say what it is that we think needs to be done with regard to the economy.

And thirdly, with regard to the matter of international relations, the feeling of the region was that sanctions against Zimbabwe are not helping to solve the problem and that it would be better that the rest of the world acted in support of what the region would try to contribute to find a solution, in the first instance to the political problems and secondly the economic ones.

So, that is basically the framework. In that context they asked us to continue to engage the Zimbabweans, the opposition and the ruling party, to encourage them to engage in what was described as a dialogue to find these political solutions.

Unfortunately the Summit met a day ahead of the meeting of the Central Committee of Zanu PF. That matter was noted, because everybody knew that one of the things that the Central Committee would address, would be: whether there should be a reconciliation of the timing of the parliamentary and presidential elections; and that if they confirmed that position then the next question would be when those elections would be, whether the reconciliation is in 2008, which is the year selected for the presidential elections, or in 2010, which is the year for the parliamentary elections. So, that was something of a limitation. I am sure that if the Summit knew this decision that was then taken on Friday, that both elections are next year, perhaps the kind of political intervention visualised by the region would have been more specific. Because, obviously, those elections are very important. They are very critical to the challenge of arriving at a solution to the political challenges.

But as I say, unfortunately we met a day before that Central Committee meeting. So the charge we have is to facilitate this dialogue to find a solution to the problems. We have never had any mandate from anybody to intervene in this matter. It was entirely a matter of our being a neighbour and not being able to stand aside when all these problems manifest themselves in Zimbabwe. This is actually the first time that we have been mandated by anybody to do anything like this. So this time we are acting for the region and, as I say, we have engaged Zimbabwe over the years because that could not be avoided.

Let me say first of all that we had already been in contact, as you would expect, with both the opposition and Zanu PF. Last week Friday, the secretaries general of the two factions of the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) had a long discussion with our people about their own view as to what needs to happen in Zimbabwe, in particular with regard to the resolution of the political conflicts. At the end of that discussion they said they would go back to Harare and then give us a document which would reflect the official, combined view of both factions of the MDC, which would then open the way for us to interact with Zanu PF, because that is what they wanted us to do. This was before the Dar-es-Salaam Summit. They are in the process of finalising that document and when it is finalised we will interact with Zanu PF, depending on what the MDC says, that this is what they say.

That meeting was before this decision about elections in 2008. But they had an expectation that this would be the decision and therefore that the principal challenge that would face all Zimbabweans, all these political groups, would be: what should be done between now and those elections to create a climate in which you do, indeed, have free and fair elections whose outcome would not be contested by anybody, because they would have been truly free and fair. This would be a major challenge, because normally the Zimbabweans hold their elections, whether parliamentary or presidential, in the month of March and if they stick to that, we have 11 months before these combined elections take place.

This climate that we are talking about, which we believe is correct, would have to be created during that period. Quite what that would mean, we will await the finalisation of this document. But I am quite certain from previous interactions with the MDC that they will raise questions about certain provisions in the Constitution about certain legislation like legislation affecting the media, legislation affecting the holding of public meetings. I would imagine that they would raise those sorts of things. And those are some of the things that need to be addressed as part of the package of measures that would be necessary to create that climate.

We will get that document during this week, finalised, and we will immediately engage Zanu PF to say, it is necessary to respond to all of these things. We may come to a stage later, I do not know, but we very well may come to a stage later when they will have to sit together to agree on whatever needs to be agreed. As I say, this would focus principally, given that there will be those elections in 2008, on what do they do to create a climate conducive to the holding of free and fair elections. So that is what we have got to encourage them to do.

FT: Mr. President, at what point does Mr Mugabe and his actions begin to actually cause damage to you as the principal leader of the region?

President Mbeki: No, you see, the region would not have said, there are political problems in Zimbabwe, let us do something about that.

I mean, the region believes they have political problems and, indeed, even in the course of the meeting people said, quite openly, they were very disturbed to see these pictures of people beaten up, as this is a manifestation of the problem. So, let us do something about it. That is why the region says, let us deal with these political challenges. The region believes, in that context, that the only way to deal with these problems, the only way that is actually going to produce results, is if we encourage the Zimbabwean political leadership to engage one another. That is the belief of the region and I think the region is correct. And so that is what we must do now. Whether this succeeds or not is up to the Zimbabwean leadership. It is they who have got to agree about the future of Zimbabwe.

To the extent that they do not agree and therefore the conflict continues and maybe violence escalates, which the region is very much against, that may be damaging, but what can you do about it except to say that we do not like it.

We have intervened officially, formally, as a region, because we do not like it, and we think that this is the route to go. But none of us in the region has got any power to force the Zimbabweans to agree. We will persuade them, insist, whatever, but in the end, like all of these situations? you know the situation the Northern Ireland; an enormous effort has gone into that process for a very long time, but it is recently that we have got?

FT: That is very interesting that you should raise that matter, because the difference was that in Northern Ireland, I mean it has been very, very difficult. But there has been someone babysitting the process for more than
10 years. But there has not really anyone been babysitting the Zimbabweans.

President Mbeki: Maybe I should not have mentioned that, because to draw parallels is going to get us into a lot of trouble. The British government has certain constitutional responsibilities toward Northern Ireland, which none of us have toward Zimbabwe. There are certain powers that the British government would have towards Northern Ireland, which none of us in the region has. So you would have a particular kind of leverage in that situation in Northern Ireland, which we would not have here. To that extent, you cannot transpose the two situations.

I should have cited our own situation here. Nobody could do anything about the situation in South Africa, unless South Africans decided to resolve the matter. That would be the situation in Zimbabwe. But it is quite clear from what took place in Dar-es-Salaam at that SADC Summit, that the region is really quite keen that this matter should be resolved. Such is the level of interdependence in the region, that inevitably negative developments in one country will affect the whole region, as would positive developments. So, I think the best we could do is to hope that everything works.

FT: I do sometimes sense though that Mr Mugabe is a bit of a trial for you?

President Mbeki: The situation in Zimbabwe is a very unhappy one. It is really very unhappy. We have been engaged with the Zimbabweans for a very long time. Historically, the first liberation movement to emerge in Zimbabwe was the African National Congress. It is directly out of here and a lot of that leadership came out of the South African National Congress. Robert Mugabe was a student at the University of Fort Hare here, in his youth, and was involved in the Youth League of the African National Congress.

We have got a long history with Zimbabwe. Part of what inspired the thinking here with regard to our own situation was the position they took in 1980. A lot of opinion in South Africa at the time, certainly reflected in the media then, was that you were going to get a very negative approach to the white minority in Zimbabwe at independence. A very strong view. And the first thing that they said was: we want national reconciliation; yes, we have had a war, we have had the Selous Scouts, and the Grey Scouts; all this war but we want national reconciliation; we confirm General Walls as the continuing Commander of the Zimbabwean Defence Force; we confirm Ken Flower as the chief of intelligence. They were all Smith's people. I am saying that it had an impact here when our turn came; it encouraged the adoption of a similar position.

We have got these relations with Zimbabwe, and so when things go wrong in Zimbabwe, naturally, even from that point of view, we will feel that. I am not talking now about refugees coming here and so on, just the sense of marching in step.

FT: But that history is so interesting as you describe it and you know the man very well, you know the history. Do you believe that President Mugabe will ever peacefully renounce power?

President Mbeki: I think so, yes. President Mugabe and the leadership of Zanu PF believe that they are running a democratic country, a democratic system. That is why you have an elected opposition and have by-elections and that is why it is possible for the MDC in local government elections to win Harare and Bulawayo and the municipal governments in both of these big cities are MDC. You know that, and that it is in the interest of Zimbabwe to maintain a democratic system, which means that people must on a regular, prescribed basis, subject themselves to elections. And, indeed, even in Dar-es-Salaam this is one of the points that President Mugabe said, that since independence in 1980, we have without fail held elections as scheduled. This is what they would say. And therefore, a notion that there could be an attempt to hold on to power outside of the allowed political processes, I don't think they would do that. You might question whether indeed, these elections are generally free and fair and all of that.

So the position that we all took as a region is that therefore let us get the Zimbabweans talking to make sure that they do indeed create those circumstances so that you do have elections that are genuinely free and fair. The matter of holding regular elections as scheduled is not in dispute. So, with regard to giving up power, they will say, sure, we shall lose elections, as we lost elections in municipal elections: the mayor of Harare is not Zanu PF; the Mayor of Bulawayo is not Zanu PF. They are all MDC people. Members of parliament in the bulk of Matabeleland are not Zanu PF, they are MDC, because our candidates were defeated. That is what they will say. They would contest a view that the Zanu PF continues in power through other than democratic means.

Please credit www.kubatana.net if you make use of material from this website. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License unless stated otherwise.

TOP