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Minutes of the South African parliamentary debate on Zimbabwe
South African National Assembly
March 27, 2007

The House met at 14:02

THE DETERIORATING SITUATION IN ZIMBABWE AND ITS POLITICAL, ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL CONSEQUENCES FOR ZIMBABWE, SOUTH AFRICA AND THE SOUTHERN AFRICAN REGION
(Debate on Matter of Public Importance)

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mrs Sue Van der Merwe.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, this is a snap debate called for by a particular party. Shouldn't the party that called for the debate therefore have the first opportunity to speak in this debate?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The party that has called for the debate have made arrangements that the hon member who was supposed to be the first speaker has not yet arrived and I can't wait, we don't know when the hon member will arrive. So, I have to move on to the second available speaker.

Mr M J ELLIS: You are quite right, Madam Speaker. Can the DA take their place perhaps Madam Speaker?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are taking a chance now. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Ms S C Van der Merwe): Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers, hon members, this is a very important subject that has been placed on the agenda this afternoon. I think it will provide us with the opportunity to state our views on the matter and to state for the record also the South African government's position with regard to Zimbabwe and the crisis that that country is facing.

Having said that, it is a pity that this debate is taking place today. The reason that I say this is that there are two very important meetings taking place in the next few days, and decisions from these meetings would have material bearing on this debate. The first is the extra-ordinary summit the SADC leaders in Tanzania tomorrow which will be preceded by a meeting of the SADC Organ on Politics, Defence and Security. President Mbeki is, as we speak, travelling to attend both meetings accompanied by my colleague, Deputy Minister Pahad. The items for discussion at these meetings will be the conflicts in both the DRC and Zimbabwe. Developments in Lesotho are also going to be discussed. The meetings, I am informed, will also be attended by President Mugabe.

The second meeting of importance to this debate is the central committee meeting of the ruling party of Zimbabwe, which is due to take place on Friday. At this meeting, Zanu-PF are due to discuss the important issue of the convergence of the parliamentary with the presidential elections. A decision is expected to be taken on whether to hold the elections simultaneously rather than two years apart, as is the case currently. We will therefore have to weigh the outcomes of these important meetings.

Nevertheless, in the context of the current situation in Zimbabwe, which is one of the reasons for the extra-ordinary SADC meeting, it is important that we state South Africa's established policy with regard to Zimbabwe. We believe that it is first and foremost the responsibility of the Zimbabweans to resolve the problems that they are facing. We further believe that as neighbours we have the responsibility to encourage and assist them to find solutions.

Today, as in the past, our President and many of our Ministers and officials have had and continue to have contact with political leaders in Zimbabwe - from the ruling party as well as with opposition leaders from both factions of the MDC. In all our discussions, the Zimbabweans themselves have encouraged us to continue to engage with them. The principal demand that all elements of the political leadership in Zimbabwe have made on us is to encourage all sides to engage in dialogue. This is what the Zimbabweans have asked us to do.

We believe further that anyone genuinely interested in the resolution of the problems of Zimbabwe must listen to what the Zimbabwean leadership is saying. Furthermore, we are convinced that violence will not solve the problems of the country. Last week my colleague, Deputy Minister Pahad issued a statement on behalf of Foreign Affairs in which he condemned the recent violence in that country and called for the respect of the rule of law and for the human rights of all citizens to be upheld. This is not a new position of South Africa; it is the position we have always taken. This has been reiterated by our President and our Ministers on numerous occasions.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we are constantly made aware of messages regarding Zimbabwe that come from regional groups such as the European Union as well as individual countries. The difference between their position and ours relates to geography. The only thing that separates us in South Africa from Zimbabwe is the Limpopo River, whereas many of the messages we hear come from far further afield. We in South Africa, as neighbours, will carry the consequences of any that happens in Zimbabwe and this fact is fundamental to our approach.

It is in the interest of South African citizens that we do not abandon our responsibility to Zimbabwe and that we act responsibly in working towards a resolution to the crises across our borders. This responsibility includes encouraging them to resolve the crisis and not to intensify the conflict. In this, we are guided by our own national considerations of what is best for our interests as a country and a region. The solution needs ultimately, after all, to be owned by the people of that country so that it is sustainable and long-term. This, Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members is our position.

The title of the debate today refers to the current deteriorating situation in Zimbabwe and its consequences for us and the region. I will therefore speak to some of the factors that are influencing that situation and its effect on us on the region. We have spoken before about the complex nature and the origins of the crisis crippling our neighbouring sister country of Zimbabwe. We have spoken also of our common wish that Zimbabwe gets out of this crisis both for the sake primarily of the people of Zimbabwe, but also in the interest of our shared neighbourhood. We acknowledge that our efforts at implementing the programme of the renewal of our continent are made poorer when Zimbabwe cannot make her full contribution.

We have always approached the situation in Zimbabwe with no sense of arrogance. We have equally avoided the temptation of focusing on competing with others outside Zimbabwe on who will shout loudest or trade the worst insults against the leadership of Zimbabwe. What has guided us all along, as I have said, is the genuine interest in the advancement of a truly durable peace and a vibrant political and economic activity, which we continue to believe is essentially what the people of Zimbabwe desire and deserve. The latest political developments in Zimbabwe, including the arrests, detention and assaults of senior opposition leaders are a major cause for concern.

The South African government wishes to stress its concern, disappointment and disapproval of the measures undertaken by the security forces in dealing with the political protests. The current Zimbabwean situation is a manifestation of the absence of open political dialogue which is regrettably sinking the country into a deeper political and economic crisis, from which only Zimbabweans can extricate themselves.

As other experiences have demonstrated, punitive measures or any other action that would constitute the erosion of the independence and sovereignty of Zimbabwe such as those contemplated by certain countries will continue to exacerbate the problem, further deepening the political and economic situation faced by Zimbabweans.

Indeed, we have noted the collateral damage that some of these measures have caused, namely the sharpening of political contradictions and economic hardship that has been visited upon the Zimbabwean people.

The South African has, and will always, insist that the only viable and sustainable solution to political and socio-economic and challenges facing Zimbabwe lies in all-inclusive dialogue by Zimbabweans. The correctness of this thesis has been confirmed by recent statements. . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, please. Continue, hon Deputy Minister.

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Ms S C Van der Merwe): The South African government has, and will always insist that the only viable and sustainable solution to political and socio-economic challenges faced by Zimbabwe lies in all-inclusive dialogue by Zimbabweans. The correctness of this thesis has been confirmed by recent statements by the UN Secretary-General Mr Ban Ki-Moon and the Chairperson of the African Union Commission, Mr Alpha Oumar Konare, which have underscored the importance of political dialogue as a means through which Zimbabwean problems should be solved.

In our discussions with the Zimbabweans, we have always implored them to institute an all-inclusive political dialogue. We have done so, informed by our own experience and by our understanding of the complex political problems faced by our sister country. Our advice was given with due regard to the sovereignty and independence of Zimbabwe and also in recognition of the right of its people to determine its future. We will continue to avail ourselves to assist in any manner that the Zimbabweans deem appropriate in order to help them out of the crisis.

The South African government, guided by the SADC Social Charter and the African Union Constitutive Act and the African Charter on Human and Peoples Rights, urges the Zimbabwean government to ensure that the rule of law and the human rights of Zimbabwean citizens are respected. The South African government calls on the Zimbabwean government to create a climate conducive for political dialogue. We also call upon the opposition to participate unreservedly in efforts aimed at finding a lasting solution to the current situation faced by the people of Zimbabwe.

In the run-up to the presidential elections it is important . . . [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon Deputy Minister, please take your seat. I want to appeal to the Whips to help us maintain order. We cannot allow a subject of national importance to be interrupted in this fashion. I'm very sorry, but this is not going to be allowed. All parties were given an opportunity to speak to the process and whoever is representing you will come and make those views that you have known to the nation. Let us respect each other. Even if we disagree on anything, this is not how we have to show how we disagree. There is a podium here where all the parties are given an opportunity to come and air their views. We are not going to allow a situation where a member is not even allowed to be heard because you differ with her. I don't think that is in order. And if this continues, I will certainly ask certain members to leave the House because we really want the debate. We want all parties to participate and we want everybody to be heard. [Applause.]

I'm very sorry about that, hon Deputy Minister. Please continue.

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Ms S C Van der Merwe): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Now where was I?

In the run-up to the presidential elections it is important that the main political protagonists agree on a framework that would guarantee the credibility of these elections. This is important in view of the fact that the outcomes of the last two presidential elections were contested. We firmly believe that respect for human rights and the rule of law and an initiation of an enduring political process will pave the way for the resolution of Zimbabwean problems. This will lay a solid foundation for political stability, economic revival and social cohesion as well as enable Zimbabwe to occupy its rightful place in the community of nations.

Without pre-empting the outcome of the SADC summit that is currently underway in Dar es Salaam, we can expect SADC to support the process of bringing about the political stability and amelioration of the economic hardships which if not attended to could have dire consequences not just for Zimbabwe but for the entire region. At the same time, we call upon the international community to join and support the efforts of SADC in bringing about a lasting solution to the Zimbabwean problem. I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr M A MNCWANGO / . . . Mme END OF TAKE

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Madam Speaker, today we tell the tyrannical regime of Zimbabwe: Time up! In God's name, go! [Interjections.] Modern history already judges us harshly for allowing the kleptocracy of Zimbabwe to terrorise and pillage this great country.

If the South African government is to live up to its often declared respect for civil liberties and human rights at home and its noble ambition for an African Renaissance elsewhere on the continent, we must denounce the Zimbabwean regime immediately, decisively and irrevocably for what it is - a hideous and destructive dictatorship which must go! [Applause.]

As we enter the 13th year of South African democracy, we have much to be proud of. Some of us who are lucky to have jobs and homes are enjoying the relative stability of a growing economy and a peaceful society.

Service delivery and development are under way. If we have not yet made a tangible dent on structural unemployment, abject poverty and the HIV/Aids pandemic, we are slowly getting there.

This period has roughly coincided with the systematic destruction of the Zimbabwean economy, beginning with the expropriation of productive farms and culminating in hyperinflation, forced internal migration, growing dependence on food aid, reduction in average life expectancy to 30 years and, most recently, a violent backlash against the domestic political opposition.

Let us not forget that the entire world remained silent when more than
20 000 Ndebele people were massacred in the 1980s, which is when the rot of appeasement set in. Close to the heart of the crisis in Zimbabwe has been the perceived refusal of President Mbeki to use his considerable political leverage and prestige to try to hold the political and economic catastrophe.

Whilst not wishing to impugn our President, the harsh reality is that perceptions matter in the conduct of foreign policy, an area in which he has always excelled. We feel that President Mbeki has consistently played down the scale of the economic and humanitarian disaster. Let us be frank, his policy of silent diplomacy has failed dismally. [Interjections.] If anything, it has been misconstrued by the Zimbabwean kleptocracy as another expression of appeasement.

The overwhelming majority of those suffering in Zimbabwe are, of course, black - the very same people for whom Mr Robert Mugabe fought, and rightly so. Zimbabwe's economic ruin, inflation running at 1 800% and unemployment at 80% hit black people hardest. The crisis in the health and education services also bears down heaviest on the black population. Yet we must not allow Zimbabwe to become a failed state.

We believe that it is not too late for the President to live up to the unique anti-apartheid heritage that brought him to power, and to mirror its inherent morality in South Africa's approach to Zimbabwe. Let us stand up, Madam Speaker, for human rights everywhere and every time, be it Zimbabwe or Darfur.

It is time to banish the old boys' club mentality and stop sheltering dictators because of their liberation credentials. [Applause.] The president of the IFP, Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi, has always been the first to praise President Mbeki's diplomatic engagement, which has given South Africa political clout far exceeding our lower-middle ranking status in the international community.

South Africa has already helped to shape aid for Africa, conflict resolution in the Great Lakes region and the North-South debate. President Mbeki, working with the international community, could still play the role of honest broker in Zimbabwe by bringing all the parties to the table. South Africa is ideally placed to host such negotiations, as it has done with other African conflicts.

Looking ahead, none of us have actually given enough attention to what will happen when there is a change of government in Zimbabwe. We must plan for the reconstruction of Zimbabwe, a new constitution, a government of national unity, the re-establishment of the rule of law, stabilising the economy, repatriating the millions of exiles and, most urgently, bringing relief to the starving should be planned for now.

It is only then, after we have turned to these tasks, that we can help our Zimbabwean brothers and sisters to rebuild their proud and fair nation - with God's help Zimbabwe will rise up again. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr D H M GIBSON

Mr M A MNCWANGO

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Deputy Speaker, I will not indulge in a shouting match with the ANC today. The humanitarian crisis affecting millions of our brothers and sisters in Zimbabwe is too serious for that. We need to discuss with each other what steps can be taken by us to help to resolve this terrible situation.

I do understand why the hon Deputy Minister Pahad appealed to me through the media to make some constructive, concrete, well-thought- out and positive suggestions. I know that he does not know what to do. That has been obvious for years and I am going to try to help him today.

I have noticed a new realism on the part of some members of the ANC. Despite the stout and rather disappointing defence by their hon Deputy Minister van der Merwe today, the ANC now realises that with millions of people going hungry, 80% unemployment, hugely breathtaking inflation figures and the opposition being persecuted and its leader arrested today, the mess is starting to impact heavily on our own country and people and on many others in our region.

Some people counsel despair and disengagement. They feel that South Africa should simply let the Zimbabweans fight it out and sort out their own problems. The question that they ask is the following: What exactly must South Africa do? They say if we were to stop the fuel or turn off the lights, this would impact drastically on the poor suffering masses. They immediately dismiss these steps and then say, since it is not possible for South Africa to invade the country, therefore we can do nothing. I must say that I find this attitude wholly unacceptable.

When a human rights tragedy unfolds before our eyes we cannot simply stand aside and let things develop. I suggest to you that it is worse for us to aid and abet the Mugabe government by sending out subtle messages that we support him in his endeavours, or at least that we do not oppose him.

That subtle message is simply that he deserves respect because he is one of the elders who did a huge amount to free Zimbabweans and that this means that he should not be opposed openly or even criticised, either by us or by other African countries. The truth is that the goodwill which he earned and deserved has been dissipated by the cruelty, the vindictiveness and the inhumanity that he has shown. This man is no longer a democrat.

What South Africa needs to do is to focus on bringing the two sides to the negotiating table. It is correct, as the government says, that Zimbabweans will in the final event have to solve their own problems. But we say they cannot do it alone.

If we had adopted the same attitude to the DRC or to Côte D'Ivoire they would not have had the slightest chance of resolving matters on their own. Why do we have a different attitude towards Zimbabwe? Or are we waiting for a complete meltdown and for even greater human suffering?

Washing our hands of responsibility and expecting Zanu-PF to go to the negotiating table with a little encouragement from us, in fact gives them a longer lease on life. They will not go to the negotiating table unless they feel that they are forced to do so.

We need to apply pressure and to encourage all other players within the region who are able to do so to apply pressure. We must make it clear publicly that South Africa is appalled at the mess that is Zimbabwe today, and wants it resolved, and will not rest until it is resolved.

We need to apply smart sanctions to President Mugabe, his wife, and his cabinet ministers, so that South Africa is no longer their place for luxury shopping. The SADC countries must also be encouraged by us to apply smart sanctions. These would target the guilty and not the poor.

We must use our conversations with President Mugabe to inform him that, if we are forced by him to do so, we will use our position on the Security Council to persuade it to refer President Mugabe's conduct and actions over these years to the International Criminal Court for investigation for possible indictment for crimes against humanity.

The director of the International Bar Association, Mark Ellis, last week recommended this action, and I agree with him. He further suggests that international law provides for prosecutions by neighbouring countries for such crimes. We and our neighbours should begin considering this. If President Mugabe wishes to escape all of this, he should be offered an option: either action by us, by the international community, by the International Criminal Court, and the inevitable ruin of his life and his company, or, on the other hand a comfortable retirement and political asylum.

You see, Minister Pahad - and I hope this will be conveyed to him - there is a lot you could do. Why don't you do it? Mugabe must go, and he must go now. [Applause.]

Mr J BICI / END OF TAKE

Mr D H M GIBSON

Mr J BICI: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, the scenes of Zimbabwean opposition supporters and leaders being brutally beaten have disturbed many of us. The economic woes of Zimbabwe are amply demonstrated by an official inflation rate of more than 1000%. The social problems are compounded when necessities such as food and fuel are not available, even to those people who are prepared to pay the exorbitant prices.

It gives us no joys to see how our brothers and sisters across the Limpopo River are suffering. We can only do our moral duty and support the people of Zimbabwe. At the same time Pres Mugabe should do his turn by abdicating, or if he does not abdicate he should be removed forcibly. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr V C GORE

Mr J BICI

Mr V C GORE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the ID is an organisation that aligns itself with, and promotes the interests of the marginalised, the downtrodden and the oppressed. There can be no doubt that the ordinary people of Zimbabwe are the people who are the victims in this current situation.

The ID feels extremely strongly that the SADC countries and their leaders, with the exception of Zambia, have not come out strongly enough against the atrocities and human rights violations within Zimbabwe in condemning the actions perpetrated against the ordinary people of Zimbabwe.

Whether it is a perception or a reality, it appears that these states, who have the potential to have a material and positive impact on change within Zimbabwe, are protecting a select and privileged old boys' club. Part of the solution to the dilemma within Zimbabwe is to continually remind ourselves that the people of South Africa need to show solidarity with the people of Zimbabwe, just as the people of Zimbabwe showed solidarity with the people of South Africa in the darkest days of apartheid.

In conclusion, it is a tragedy that the people who fought for human rights and freedom within Zimbabwe are exactly the people today who are trying to take those rights and privileges away. I thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE Mr V C GORE

Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP hopes that the Southern African leaders' meeting taking place today in Tanzania will decide on what concrete steps are to be taken to halt the abuses and atrocities taking place in Zimbabwe.

It is a shame that most African leaders chose to remain silent when old women were brutalised by the Zimbabwean police and their agents. Fracturing and breaking the ribs of a 64-year-old grandmother, breaking her leg and arm, and then fracturing her knee, is demonic, deplorable, barbaric and totally unacceptable, and must be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

The ACDP questions why the South African government has, until today, chosen to pursue an ineffective policy of quiet diplomacy, even when the Zimbabwean police were beating protesters and leaders of the opposition with steel pipes and iron bars, breaking their bones and cracking their skulls in the process.

Why will they not publicly voice their disapproval of the brutality of the autocratic Zimbabwean government? Their silence is tantamount to condoning the heinous acts of a draconian government that does not care for its people. [Time expired.]

Dr C P MULDER Rev K R J MESHOE

Dr C P MULDER: Madam Deputy Speaker, the problem is not Zimbabwe and the problem is not the Zimbabweans either; the problem is the president of Zimbabwe, Mr Robert Mugabe, himself.

Afrikaans In Afrikaans is daar 'n gesegde wat lui, "'n Vis vrot van sy kop af ondertoe."

English And that is exactly what has happened in this country. Mr Mugabe was
56 years old in 1980 when he became president. It is now 27 years later. He's 83 years old and he's still clinging onto power. Mr Mugabe's actions have nothing to do with land or the colonial period, but everything with a dictator hanging onto power.

Afrikaans Feit van die saak is, as 'n mens kyk na die SA Grondwet, bepaal artikel 88(2): "no person may hold office as President for more than two terms..." English That's the lesson that Zimbabwe did not learn and that's why they have had a president for 27 years and he doesn't know how to go home. It's time that the people tell him to go home. We cannot solve the problem. South Africa and the rest of the world now have to deal with this problem. The problem is Mr Mugabe: Go home!

Mr I S MFUNDISI Dr C P MULDER

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Deputy Speaker and hon members, there is no question that Zimbabwe is in a state of economic and political chaos. The annual inflation rate there is above 1700%. Shops in that country change their prices almost hourly, while unemployment is well over
80%. This does not bode well for citizens and that is why the Zambian president, Levy Mwanawasa, has turned like a proverbial worm, "Inroads into that country have put a strain on the resources".

The saying that those whom the gods want to destroy they first make mad, aptly describes Pres Mugabe. No leader of government worth his salt can delight in the suffering of the people like he does. Pres Mugabe struts like a colossus and hurls insults at other leaders while lesser people cheer him on when he says those leaders should mind their business while he keeps to Zimbabwe. He keeps Zimbabwe in hungry, lean and maimed people! One thing that he excels in is insolence.

The fact that teachers, nurses and municipal workers have joined the trade unions in protest against his regime proves that "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin" was not only confined to Belshazzar in the biblical days. It is an open secret that most analysts, even in Zimbabwe, feel that the removal from office of the man with the heart of a lion is the only solution left. I thank you. [Time expired.]

Dr S E M PHEKO

Mr I S MFUNDISI

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Deputy Speaker, those who talk of regime change in Zimbabwe that suits their colonial interests must be told in very clear language that Africa is not for sale. [Interjections.] There will never be a repeat of the Berlin Conference through which Africans were dehumanised and Africa's riches used to develop countries steeped in imperialism.

The Zimbabwean situation can be resolved only by those who genuinely want to see this great country prosper, and by those who can persuade the Zimbabwean leaders to meet and find a solution to their country's problems. However, encouraging violence at night, keeping silent about the bombing of trains from Harare to Bulawayo, insulting Pres Robert Mugabe and projecting him as reckless is simply putting petrol on the fire. [Interjections.]

Why was Mugabe a good man when he allowed 4 000 white farmers to keep
12 million ha to themselves? Why is the British government left out of this picture after breaching the Lancaster House Agreement? [Applause.] Are Tony Blair and George Bush the kind of people who can bring peace to Zimbabwe after what they have done in Iraq and are now threatening Iran? [Interjections.] Blair is a man who cannot even apologise for the involvement of his own country in the slave trade.

Zimbabwe needs mediators with credibility and integrity, not those who have blood on their hands and practise selective morality. [Applause.]

Ms S RAJBALLY

Dr S E M PHEKO

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Deputy Speaker, in view of the South African commitment and duty to Africa, the MF feels that we have far too long avoided the Zimbabwean dilemma. While it is true that democratically we need to respect the rule of law in Zimbabwe and the order chosen by the people, concern is expressed as to whether the current government of Zimbabwe is truly and justly the vote of the people.

We hear of an impoverished nation that has been raped of its assets and in which an affluent lifestyle is only enjoyed by the lords of the land. South Africa, currently holding a seat on the UN Security Council, the AU, Nepad and SADC, has a duty incumbent upon itself to become involved in attaining stability and democracy in Zimbabwe.

Robert Mugabe is not only answerable to the Zimbabwean people, but for the conduct of his cabinet he's answerable to the world when it comes to his human rights violations. It is time we unite to address the Zimbabwean challenge and rescue a country driven by extremism. Thank you very much.

Mr S SIMMONS Ms S RAJBALLY

Mr S SIMMONS: Madam Speaker, it has been reported in the media today that the Gauteng health department is experiencing an increase in the number of patients from Zimbabwe. If this is the case, then it is proof that the social infrastructure in Zimbabwe is on its knees as a result of the political situation in that country.

Statements by the Zimbabwean president give a clear indication that our government's claim that its silent diplomacy, or constructive diplomacy, as it's now been relabelled, will bear fruit, is wishful thinking.

After Pres Mugabe took over from Mr Ian Smith a few decades ago, Zimbabwe adopted a new democratic constitution which also resulted in economic prosperity. However, since then, over the years repeated amendments to the Zimbabwean constitution eroded provisions for checks and balances that should have promoted true democracy and human rights. This fact explains why the Zimbabwean government forces have the audacity to think they have an inherent right to abuse the human rights of ordinary Zimbabweans.

It appears that government conveniently ignores the fact that Zimbabwe has, prior to 1994, publicly denounced apartheid and in doing so contributed to the constitutional victory of South Africa. The UPSA believes that our government has a moral responsibility towards the people of Zimbabwe in their second fight for sociopolitical liberation. I thank you.

Mr L M GREEN Mr S SIMMONS

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, the FD strongly condemns the human rights abuses and atrocities perpetrated by the present Zimbabwean regime. The reason for the apparent inability to achieve a quick breakthrough in the crisis in Zimbabwe is that African leaders have not come out in unison on how to tackle the crisis.

President Mbeki spoke about quiet diplomacy, but we do not get the impression that other African leaders have collectively embraced this position. What needs to be achieved over the next two days at the Southern African leaders' summit on Zimbabwe is for collective action to be agreed upon by all leaders so as to speed up a solution to the Zimbabwean crisis.

Mr Mugabe needs to be persuaded, not by quiet diplomacy, because Zimbabweans are voting with their feet as they cross our borders in their thousands, that his policies have done Zimbabwe no good and that it is time for him to leave and hand over the reigns to others who will build on the successes achieved and review those policies that have caused socioeconomic collapse. I thank you. [Interjections.]

Mr M U KALAKO / SlR / END OF TAKE

Mr L M GREEN

Mr M U KALAKO: Madam Speaker, Ministers and hon members, I must say it is important that as parliamentarians we should sometimes dispel some of the disillusions which we think as South Africans we can go anywhere in the world and solve any situation. [Interjections.]

I want to say here that all the members of the opposition who have been debating here, not the least the DA, should really understand that the South African government will always in its actions, with regard to the situation in Zimbabwe, work within the parameters of the African Union, Southern Africa Development Community and all other international conventions that we are signatory to.

Therefore, I want to say that as the South African government has expressed throughout the week that it is concerned about the situation in Zimbabwe - this of course follows the detention and beatings of the leadership of the opposition and its supporters - and having made a call on all stakeholders involved in the conflict to cease hostilities and engage in talks in order to find a lasting solution to the problem, precisely because we believe that it is thorough engaging in dialogue that lasting peace can be achieved.

Our government has reiterated its position that:

It will continue to monitor the situation closely and work with all parties in Zimbabwe in political, economic, trade and social sectors to secure the objective of dialogue among all political parties is realised. Consistent with this objective, have called on the Zimbabwean government to respect the rule of law including the rights of all Zimbabweans and leaders of various political parties. In the same spirit appealed to leaders of the opposition to work towards a climate that is conducive to finding a lasting solution to the current challenges faced by the people of Zimbabwe.

The ANC expressed similar sentiments in support of our government. It said that:

That it is concerned about the situation in Zimbabwe, including reports of alleged assaults of opposition leaders while in police custody. [Interjections.] The ANC trusts that a thorough investigation will be conducted into these allegations and that any necessary action be taken in accordance with the laws. The ANC reiterates its call on all stakeholders in Zimbabwe to respect and uphold the Constitution and laws of the land and work to safeguard the rights of all citizens. We further reiterate our call to all stakeholders in Zimbabwe to continue to seek peaceful and inclusive solutions. For its part the ANC will continue to engage all parties in Zimbabwe in an effort to achieve an outcome that serves the interests of Zimbabwean people. It will continue to do so in a spirit of respect, friendship and solidarity.

I have quoted both government and the ANC's statements on the recent developments in Zimbabwe in order to demonstrate that as the ruling party we have been seized with the situation of Zimbabwe. Unfortunately, the ANC is not the ruling party of Zimbabwe and President Mbeki is not the President of that country, and there is no chance that he will ever be - or the ANC of South Africa ever be the ruling of Zimbabwe. [Interjections] [Applause.]

The South African government is a signatory to many international conventions on state to state relations and it is guided by those conventions in its approach to solving international, continental and regional conflicts. [Interjections.]

Those who think that the South African government will be policing the southern African states will be disappointed. Gone are the days where white racist regimes of South Africa were conducting military invasions in southern African states. The nonracial, nonsexist and democratic state of South Africa respects the independence and sovereignty of its neighbours. Those who criticise our government of not being strong enough in our statements on Zimbabwe what they mean. What is strong enough?

There is no way that the South African government will send a military force to Zimbabwe. Indeed, as President Kufuor, the current chairperson of the African Union said that if there are any illusions that we can send an expedition force to Zimbabwe, such stupid suggestions will be rethought.

The SPEAKER: Hon member, is that appoint of order?

Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, I want to ask if the hon member is prepared to take a very easy question.

The SPEAKER: Do you want to take a question hon member?

Mr M U KALAKO: No, Madam Speaker.

The SPEAKER: He doesn't want.

Dr C P MULDER: I thought so.

Mr M U KALAKO: I repeat, the current President Kufuor, the current of the AU said that if there are any illusions that we can send an expedition force to Zimbabwe, such stupid suggestions should be rethought. The South African government will work closely with Sadec, AU and those in the international community who are committed to peace, stability and the economic recovery of Zimbabwe. As we speak now Sadec still dealing with the situation in Zimbabwe. In fact, our President has postponed all his engagements to attend a meeting of the Sadec discussing the situation of Zimbabwe. [Interjections.]

As Parliament we should assist efforts of our government, Sadec and AU in trying to find a lasting solution for the situation of Zimbabwe. Therefore, our Parliament should consider the following recommendations: Firstly, that all efforts must be made to engage parliamentarians of Zimbabwe from all parties to persuade them to support peace efforts and lead in engaging in dialogue about their situation.

Secondly, our Parliament should make it clear about our discomfort with violence and violations of human rights. Thirdly, our Parliament should initiate a meeting with both the ruling and opposition party Members of Parliament with the aim of persuading both to realise the urgency for a dialogue.

We should of course do this not in an isolated manner but within a regional framework guided by our understanding only that the situation in Zimbabwe cannot be resolved by sending armed formations marching through the streets of Zimbabwe.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE /JH / END OF TAKE

Mr M U KALAKO

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, if ever I have listened to 13 minutes of balderdash, I have just listened to it. [Interjections.]

I have in my hand a notice which says that, today, Mr Morgan Tsvangirai and his head office staff were all arrested in their head office in Zimbabwe. I've listened to the hon Deputy Minister, who has the distinction that she has my surname ... [Interjections] ... who told us nothing new. It was words, words, and words. But she couldn't produce an effective plan, and she gave me the impression that South Africa is playing the violin while Zimbabwe is on fire, as I've proved now. [Interjections.]

Enough, however, has been said about how bad the situation is. What we need are plans. We wish to make some suggestions. While waiting on the departure of the Mugabe regime, we must devise a constructive plan for Zimbabweans to start talking to one another. [Interjections.] An honest broker is needed to facilitate talks, to make available his good offices to organise all factions.

There is a point of order.

The SPEAKER: What is the point of order?

Mrs S A SEATON: Madam Speaker, earlier on, when the Deputy Minister was speaking, the House was asked to be quiet to listen to this important debate. [Interjections.] Can the other side of the House now be quiet and listen to the debate? [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon members, please do listen to hon Van der Merwe.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Yes, they should listen, because I've got a very good speech. I wrote it myself! [Laughter.]

There must be an honest broker who must make available his good offices to organise all relevant factions of Zimbabwe to talk to one another, and if necessary, fly them into South Africa to arrange meetings here on neutral ground.

Humanitarian assistance should be urgently organised for the impoverished Zimbabweans, but under international control. Zimbabwean leaders who now reside in South Africa should be assisted to form a proper opposition to the regime in Zimbabwe, thereby assisting to restore democracy.

In the name of humanity, we have to call for an end to the gross violation of human rights in Zimbabwe, and restore respect for the rule of law. This should be done by all African and international organisations, because enough is enough. [Interjections.]

In conclusion, we in the IFP are certain that the current Zimbabwean regime is on its way out, and may that be soon. We look forward to the restoration of democracy in Zimbabwe; once again, respect for human rights and respect for the rule of law. We look forward to the day that Zimbabwe will once again become prosperous, peaceful, and one of the real diamonds of Africa.

Our Zimbabwean neighbours should know that South Africa cares for them, and that we wish to give them hope for the future. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The SPEAKER: I wish to remind hon members that Extended Public Committees are scheduled to start at 15:00 in the Old Assembly Chamber and in Committee Room E249.

The House adjourned at 14:56. /AKJ / END OF TAKE

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