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Transcript of 'Hot Seat' with Christopher Dell, the US Ambassador to Zimbabwe
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
March 20, 2007

http://swradioafrica.com/pages/hotseat210307.htm

The US Ambassador to Zimbabwe, Christopher Dell, is the guest on the programme Hot Seat with Violet Gonda. Ambassador Dell was at the Rotten Row Court House where he witnessed the injuries suffered by the opposition and civic leaders. He was also present when police defied an order from the attorney general to bring those who needed medical attention to the hospital. What is his reaction to threats on western diplomats by the Mugabe regime? In what ways are targeted sanctions going to be tightened or improved considering the rate of the political deterioration? Has anything changed US perception on the issue of labelling Zimbabwe an outpost of tyranny?

Violet Gonda: My guest on the programme ‘Hot Seat’ today is Christopher Dell, the US Ambassador to Zimbabwe . Ambassador Dell, welcome on the programme Hot Seat

Ambassador Dell: Thank-you Violet, it’s a pleasure to be able to talk with you.

Violet: Thank you.Now, Opposition, Civic Leaders and activists are under attack in Zimbabwe , what’s your perception of the current political situation in the country?

Ambassador Dell: Well, I think it’s quite striking how the country has changed in the last week. The mood is much more tense than it was, people have demonstrated admirable resolve in the face of a brutal crack-down and I think it’s fair to say that, for the first time in a long time, momentum has really shifted to the Opposition and away from the Government which has now been forced on to it’s back leg in responding to events.

Violet: Would you say extra-ordinary and unsafe conditions exist in Zimbabwe right now?

Ambassador Dell: Um, well that’s a bit of a sweeping statement. You know, it’s quite striking while we understand the police are going through neighbourhoods in the High Density areas and in any place they see more than two people together they’re attacking them with rubber truncheons etcetera. Friday evening last I was in Avondale, the Italian Bakery was full of people, hundreds of people were gathered and no sign of a police presence. So, this is very selective; targeting obviously the areas where they fear the potential actions of the people.

Violet: And the US Government has issued a statement condemning the arrests of political and civic leaders, but it seems the situation keeps getting worse as the Government continues to arrest and brutalise opponents. We understand that Nelson Chamisa, the Spokesperson for the Tsvangirai MDC was brutalised on Sunday when he was trying to board a plane to got to an ACP/ EU meeting in Brussels, and then, we understand that the Opposition leader of the other MDC faction, Arthur Mutambara, was arrested as he was trying to leave the country to go to South Africa. Two other Opposition officials, Grace Kwinjeh and Sekai Holland, were also detained at the airport as they were just about to go to South Africa for medical treatment. Now do you expect the Zimbabwe Government to respond to your statements, where you condemned, where the US Government condemned the arrests of the political and civic leaders, and, if not, is there anything that America can do about this?

Ambassador Dell: Well, of course we expect them to take seriously what we have to say. Even the refusal of the Foreign Minister to let other people raise their voices isn’t sufficient for us to be convinced that we’re not to stop speaking out and we won’t stop speaking out. Let me just say that the most recent assaults which you mentioned, the attack on the two ladies and on Nelson Chamisa, all of whom were travelling to the airport, two to seek medical attention one to participate in a meeting between European and African Parliamentarians; sanctioned by the Speaker of Zimbabwe’s Parliament by the way; exposes for the lie that it is, the Government’s claim that it’s merely responding to violence instigated by others. Here you had two people who were seated on an aircraft, were dragged off by the police and then brutalised and sent back to hospital. And, in the other case, a man on his way to the airport, dragged out of his car and brutalised with iron bars. These people were not participating in violence, they were not inciting violence, they were seeking to perform legitimate travel; clearly brutal, unprovoked attacks. As we are speaking Violet, I am looking at pictures of Nelson’s beaten face on CNN, this just exposes for what it really is, I think for the whole world to see the mendacious nature of the Government’s claims about the situation here.

Violet: So is there anything that America can do about this?

Ambassador Dell: Well, we continue to work with regional neighbours to convince them to step up their engagement on the issues here and to respond. We are looking at ways of strengthening and expanding the sanctions regime against more individuals involved, including known and identifiable police officers. We will be, we are addressing a whole series of measures. I hope as well that we will find that the European Parliamentarians and African Parliamentarians participating in this ACP/EU meeting that Mr Chamisa was going to will have the opportunity to question rigorously the ZANU MPs who are in attendance at that meeting. I can’t believe that they would be allowed to get a free pass at a political gathering of that kind, coming there in the face of their Government’s brutal behaviour at home.

Violet: We will come to that issue just now, about ZANU PF Parliamentarians. But, on the issue of targeted sanctions, you know you said you are looking into tightening the targeted sanctions. Are you able to tell us a bit about in what ways they are going to be tightened or improved considering the rate of political deterioration?

Ambassador Dell: Well, the only thing I am in a position to say right now is we are looking at additional individuals who can be identified to include them on the lists of people who are targeted for financial sanctions and travel restrictions. That’s about as much as I can say at this point.

Violet: And, you know, as you’ve just mentioned just now, the Mugabe regime is preventing people from travelling to get medical treatment and an Opposition MP was brutalised when he was just about to leave the country to attend this ACP/EU meeting in Brussels. Now, ironically, ruling party MPs as you said, were allowed to leave. Now, what reasons do countries like America or European countries have for not including ZANU PF MPs to the targeted sanctions? You know after all they are other people who support ZANU PF’s repressive policies and make them law.

Ambassador Dell: Yes, well I can’t speak for the European Union, I’m afraid you’d have to address them

Violet: What about the US ?

Ambassador Dell: We do include those individuals; those people are notfree to travel to the United States whenever they want to.

Violet: All ZANU PF MPs?

Ambassador Dell: I believe that is correct, and, if I’m not correct you’ve just pointed out another very useful area we should take a look at. But, I believe they are already included.

Violet: And also Mugabe has threatened to expel Western diplomats whom he accuses of supporting the political opposition. He also said diplomats who wanted to represent their countries had to behave properly or would be thrown out. What do you make of these statements or these threats, rather?

Ambassador Dell: Well I’m not particularly disturbed by these threats, not only have we heard them before, but, more particularly, I’m an individual, I can be asked to leave the country any time, that’s certainly within their rights, but there’ll be somebody to take my place ultimately, maybe not immediately. You know, you can get rid of an individual; you cannot get rid of the United States . We will remain engaged here and we will continue to make our views known forcefully. They hang a lot of their position on citing certain Articles of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations about non-interference in the internal affairs of the receiving State, conveniently ignoring other Articles of the Convention which obligate the receiving State; i.e. Zimbabwe ; to allow diplomatic missions to ascertain; by all lawful means; the conditions and developments in the receiving State. We believe that by participating in, or observing, Courtroom procedures that are open to the public is certainly part of our duty about ascertaining the conditions prevailing in the State. So, we have a fundamental disagreement perhaps on the obligations and privileges accorded by the Vienna Convention but the Government’s position is not as rock-solid as it would like to maintain.

Violet: And I understand that Mugabe actually asked his Minister of Foreign Affairs to summon diplomatsto read the riot act to them. Have you actually been summoned?

Ambassador Dell: Earlier in the day, earlier today, we were informed that the Minister would be holding a briefing for Diplomats at 2.00 o’clock here. We were invited to attend it. I did travel to the Ministry at that time. When it was made clear in response to two things, first, that it wasn’t a diplomatic briefing, it was essentially a press conference the Minister was holding using us as props; because he had invited television cameras and journalists; which is not the usual practice in a diplomatic meeting. Secondly, I asked whether we were going to be afforded the privilege, after listening respectfully to the Minister, of having our own concerns addressed, questions answered and room for responses. Just as we had done, for example, in giving the Zimbabwean Ambassador the chance to respond when he was called in by the State Department last week. I was told that no such assurances could be given and I decided at that point that I couldn’t participate in such a shambolic event and I departed.

Violet: So you wouldn’t know what was actually discussed at this meeting with the other, or this conference with the other diplomats?

Ambassador Dell: Oh I’ve been back briefed. They made the case that they have been, I believe the Minister’s phrase was ‘excessively tolerant’ in allowing the Opposition to exist here, no other country in the world is as tolerant as Zimbabwe . And, that certain Western diplomats, un-named, but he cited eight, have been behaving in a manner that they don’t believe accords with their diplomatic responsibilities. I think he gave an open press conference afterwards; and you can probably find exactly what he said on the wires since it was, in essence a public meeting rather than a diplomatic thing; I think you could probably turn to the media to get a full report. They are free to take any action they believe is within their rights. We will respond appropriately and in the meantime we are going to continue to engage here in ways that we believe is important to do to support democracy in this part of the world, and in this country in particular.

Violet: And has anything changed, you know, US perception on the issue of labelling Zimbabwe an ‘outpost of tyranny’?

Ambassador Dell: I would say the only thing that has changed in respect of that we are convinced that it’s true and we call upon Zimbabwe ’s neighbours to recognise it and act accordingly.

Violet: Several Governments in the West responded immediately to the arrests and the assaults of the Opposition and the Civic Leaders, but some observers say so far there have been rather weak statements from Africa . Why do you think African countries are so reluctant to condemn human rights abuses particularly in Zimbabwe ?

Ambassador Dell: Well, I think that’s a question you have to really direct at them to explain their motivations. What I think is happening however; and there was by the way one very mild observation from an individual in the South African Government, the Deputy Foreign Minister; what I think is happening however is the ability of the African Governments to hide behind the sort of propaganda barrage from the Government of Zimbabwe, blaming this all, characterising this all as a dispute between the West and Robert Mugabe or between Great Britain and the government of Zimbabwe or whatever their excuse is. That ability to hide behind that is disappearing as the world sees photographs and evidence of the violence being carried out by the Government of Zimbabwe against its own people. It’s very clear these were not actions in any way connected to anyone except the Government of Zimbabwe, which chose to deliberately assault and use violence against its own population.

Violet: The US sub-contracted their foreign policy on Zimbabwe or their policy on Zimbabwe to South Africa by making Thabo Mbeki the lead man. But, many believe he’s blocking progress on Zimbabwe . Whatare your views on this?

Ambassador Dell: Well I don’t think it’s fair to still go as far to go as far as to say that President Mbeki is blocking progress. I think he believed in what he called ‘quiet diplomacy’ and I think there is a growing recognition by the South African public that quiet diplomacy has not worked, that its played out and has not succeeded and that it’s time for a new approach. I’ve been very impressed by the outpouring of public sentiment, outrage in South Africa of what their neighbouring country is doing here. And, I believe that as public opinion in South Africa clearly shifts and becomes more forceful that the Government there will respond appropriately.

Violet: Let’s go back to the issue of the targeted sanctions your Government extended on key Government officials in Zimbabwe . What impact have these had on the officials?

Ambassador Dell: Yes. Well you know, the Government of Zimbabwe likes to – has a very confused message on this. On the one hand, they blame all their problems on sanctions; if only there were no sanctions nothing would be wrong in Zimbabwe today. And, on the other hand, they protest bitterly about how they’re illegal; in private they complain about how it hurts them. A very confused message and at the same time saying ‘well, you know, we don’t care; they don’t do any damage to us’. They just really haven’t ever got their story straight on this. Our belief is that the targeted measures do work, they do hurt and the individuals who’ve been targeted are those who in private complain the most about the losses they suffer as a result or their inability to travel, for example, to visit their children in the US . With regards to the future I can only say ‘watch this space’. I think you will see some further moves on the sanctions front.

Violet: And, you know, not only the Zimbabwe Government has blamed the crisis on the sanctions, but even some African leaders. Now, why do you think that regional leaders perceive that US measures are increasing the suffering in Zimbabwe ?

Ambassador Dell: Oh I think it’s a convenient reason to not engage or take any action on their own. If they are willing, if they are able to sort of hide behind these false accusations it gives them an easy out from having to actually face up to the building crisis on their own front door steps.

Violet: And if there are no sanctions on Zimbabwe as a country, what aid and trade is there between the US and Zimbabwe and are you able to tell us what it amounts to in terms of export earnings at this point?

Ambassador Dell: Sure. Right now Zimbabwe has a positive trade relationship with the United States . Zimbabwe , on the order of $74 million a year versus approximately $50 million a year. These numbers are slightly old and in fact, as the overall decline of Zimbabwe ’s economy under the poor management of the Government continues and more and more companies shut down for lack of materials, lack of foreign exchange etcetera, the trade balance will be diminishing because the Zimbabwean economy is disappearing from under us. But, many Zimbabwean companies do business with the United States, leading exports include automobile windows, doors, sporting equipment, trade goes on in a variety of areas and there are more than 40 or 50 American companies represented, usually by local representatives right here in Harare that import goods from the United States. You asked about our assistance, that runs on the order, well, it varies year to year, but we provide, we provided last year, for example, US$50 million in food assistance to Zimbabwe and another US$26 million in the fight against HIV/AIDS. So I think that gives you a pretty good sense of the fact that the US Government remains deeply committed to helping the people and staving off the worst effects of the crisis that the Government has caused here.

Violet: Right, and of course there are others, like Mugabe, who have accused your Government of trying to overthrow his Government via a surrogate Opposition and impose the sanctions to stifle the regime. Can you comment on that?

Ambassador Dell: Well, its arrant nonsense and they all know it, but the Government of Zimbabwe is a practitioner of the big lie, if you are going to have a propaganda war, you tell a big lie and you repeat it over and over. For example, they’ve been trying to blame the recent demonstrations here on an alleged meeting that I’m supposed to have had with the Opposition forces at the Hotel Bronte on January 9 th. On that day I was in Bulawayo as it happens and they can simply go to the National Museum there and see where I signed in the Guest Book if they want to prove that to themselves. But, their tactic is to repeat the same lies over and over again in the efforts of trying to create a new reality that’s more palatable to them rather than facing up to their own responsibilities which was the refreshing thing, I must say, about Governor Gono’s last monetary policy statement. It was the first time a senior official of Zimbabwe ’s Government has recognised what we all know to be true which is that Zimbabwe ’s problems are caused by Zimbabwe and the solutions also lie in Zimbabwe . We agree with that completely and I have told everybody here, beginning with the President himself when I presented my credentials two years ago, for us the question is not who rules Zimbabwe , but how Zimbabwe is ruled. If there were genuinely free and fair elections under strong international supervision, we would respect the result no matter who won that. What we object to is the kind of manipulated voting process that has come to characterise elections here in which the will of the people is thwarted by distortion of the results of the elections. So you asked about the question of change here. The change here we would like to see is change that comes about through legitimate democratic means, i.e. a free and fair election and a ballot box.

Violet: And also, in the recent International Crisis Group, the ICG, Report on Zimbabwe .

Ambassador Dell: Yes

Violet: You know, there’s a road map for change in the country. Now is America in favour of this plan and do you think it is at all achievable? You know, they say, they talk about the retirement of Mugabe and then a transitional government which may lead to a new constitution and elections. Is America in favour of this plan?

Ambassador Dell: Look, there are probably as many ideas and plans out there as there are groups writing them about what the way forward is here. I think the way forward is very clear; it’s through elections, it’s through free and fair elections, it’s through free and fair elections under international supervision; however that is to be defined; that reflect the will of the people as expressed through their votes. An election is scheduled for next March, that’s the way forward I believe. It is clear that change is coming, it is clear that a succession is in the offing, everybody knows that the economic crisis that Zimbabwe is experiencing simply provides the backdrop for the internal dissentions within the Ruling Party; that’s where the succession struggle is playing itself out right now. So we don’t have any particular view on the ICG Report, there are interesting ideas. I think the important thing is that the process needs to be conducted through legitimate democratic means, that the results - that the will of the people is respected, and that whoever comes to power gets down to the serious work of rebuilding a shattered economy and a shattered democratic system that once made Zimbabwe the great hope of the region.

Violet: There’s also this talk of the possibility of a reformed ZANU PF. Now, would America be willing to negotiate with a reformed ZANU PF?

Ambassador Dell: Well, that kind of forces me to repeat what I just said, it’s not about who it’s about how

Violet: The reason I’m asking that is because many would ask, and certainly our listeners - that is it possible to reform a regime that so abuses human rights and is apparently full of corruption. So that’s why I’m going back to that question.

Ambassador Dell: Well, that’s a valid question; I mean I can’t answer that in the abstract, we’ll have to see whether there is enough recognition within the ruling party on the need for reform, that reform-minded individuals can actually implement a reform based programme in that party. I simply don’t know the answer. I think there are many good people in ZANU who understand what the problems are in this country, they understand their own Party is responsible for that and who genuinely want a better day for the future of Zimbabwe, but there are many people in the Party who don’t feel that way and I don’t know how a struggle between them would play out. We’ve made it very clear that any re-engagement on the part of the United States, and I don’t speak for others, but I think views are similar elsewhere in the International Community, any re-engagement on our part is going to be predicated upon their being genuine, concrete and irreversible reforms here. As I said publicly before you know, rescue requires reforms. The simple fact is Zimbabwe has dug such a deep hole for itself; it does not have the resources nor the ability to climb out of that hole on its own. It’s going to need a helping hand. We are prepared to provide that helping hand but only on the basis that whoever is governing this country is clearly, demonstrably and irrevocably committed to reforms to restore the economy and democracy.

Violet: That’s exactly what I wanted to ask on the issue of what happens when change comes. It is inevitable that Mugabe is going to go, either by retirement or by death and so some would ask

Ambassador Dell: Or defeated in elections.

Violet: Or defeated in elections; that’s if he stands again. What is the US prepared to do in terms of reconstruction given the absolute destruction of the economy and the social fabric of society?

Ambassador Dell: Well, we are increasing turning attention to that very question, trying to define the scale and the scope of what will be required to rebuild this country. It’s very difficult to say at this point, we all know the economic collapse has been massive, we all know that there is a tremendous amount that needs to be done for example Zimbabwe’s foreign debt now stands at US$4 billion, how is Zimbabwe going to address that? Many, as much as a third of its population; some of the most talented Zimbabweans; have left the country. Who’s going to help them? How are they going to be persuaded to come home and participate in the re-building? The Government’s flagrant disregard for private property and the Rule of Law have led to the absolute drying up of investment here, both foreign investments but much more importantly, investment by Zimbabweans. How are those questions going to be addressed? So, there’s a lot that has to be thought through, there are questions not only of how much money is going to be required but what kinds of policies, what kinds of changes, what kinds of legal reforms. It’s a massive agenda, as I said. As the end looms we are increasingly turning our attention to thinking about tomorrow and the days after the changes.

Violet: And we spoke earlier about the reports that the British and the US Government and the British Government intended to unite the Opposition, which you denied, but what exactly is the US position regarding the current state of the Opposition in Zimbabwe?

Ambassador Dell: Well, I have to tell you, I think that the Government’s recent actions have done more good than anything anybody else could have done to fostering unification in the MDC. It was quite striking; Mr Tsvangirai and Mr Mutambara were sitting side by side in the bench in Court, talking in a relaxed manner with each other for many hours. I think this is yet another example of a tremendous own goal scored by the Government of Zimbabwe against itself.

Violet: And finally, and on a lighter note, can you describe your character to us? You know the reason I’m asking is do you like a little trouble because you’ve been Ambassador in some of the world’s hot spots you know where there are issues of democracy …Ambassador Dell: (laughs)

Violet: … and I think at one time Mugabe actually called you a troublemaker? Can you comment about this?

Ambassador Dell: Well, you know you judge a man by his enemies is all I can say to that comment. Do I like trouble? No, not really, But as a professional American Diplomat I’ve developed a certain expertise in countries with, shall we say, a difficult democratic legacy, and, I quite enjoy working to advance the values that my country believes in and stands for. And, so it’s been, despite the efforts of the Government here to vilify me, if that’s the right word, I don’t know if there’s a word for devil-fy me! It’s been certainly an enjoyable experience and an honour to actually witness the people of Zimbabwe as they carry out their heroic struggle.

Violet: And you were actually briefly detained for jogging to close to the State House, did you really just wander in that area?

Ambassador Dell: Ah, there’s another old canard they like to raise from time to time! I was in a public park, it was not clearly marked that it was a private area and I was taking pictures of birds, I like birds and I like photography and we happened to stumble across an unmarked military installation in the middle of a public park. The whole thing was rectified very civilly initially until the Government decided it was something they could make political hay out of it and turn it into another story. Their initial reaction was to apologise ask me not to sort of protest and raise too many complaints about their own behaviour; rather the behaviour of their own soldiers to which senior MFA and military officials called me personally to apologise.

Violet: So you were just enjoying a jog and just wandered in that area?

Ambassador Dell: Yes exactly. The story, they’ve also never been; and that’s another example of how inconsistent they are; they’ve never been able to keep the story straight, what I was doing there. And, they’ve put out three or four different versions of their sinister interpretations within three or four days and for a Government that prides itself on it’s propaganda apparatus, they really are fairly amateurish.

Violet: And before we go Ambassador is there anything you might want to add?

Ambassador Dell: No, I think it’s clear that there is a building crisis in this country and one can only admire the resolution and courage of the people here as they begin to take the future of their country out of the hands of those who have manipulated them for so long and back into their own hands.

Violet Gonda: Thank you very much Ambassador Dell

Ambassador Dell: Ok. Thank you very much.

Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa 's Hot Seat programme (Tues 20 March 2007 ). Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

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