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Arnold Tsunga: I think there are a number of factors that have resulted in Zimbabweans behaving in the way they are now and it goes back to what David Coltart said earlier on that the current state of collective expression is merely a manifestation of what has been brewing over the years. If you look at the intersection between the socio economic conditions and the political processes that are taking place right now, you are actually beginning to see that we have reached a stage, I think, where the economic and social conditions are going to drive and determine the political processes. Before, maybe last year or the year before you had a situation where because the economy seemed to have been performing, you know, when the rule of law situation was thrown out of the window - you had a situation where politicians were driving the economic processes, the social processes. But, now there has been a reversal where now that the work force has been largely liquidated and people thrust into chronic poverty and you now have the middle class virtually extinguished and reduced into an environment also of chronic poverty; the highest inflation. You are beginning to see a situation where it’s now a question of survival. It’s no longer a question, people are not exactly conscious that they are involved in a political process; some of them are simply striking or getting engaged because they don’t have food at home. And, I think, that’s a very good intersection you know, between civil and political rights as well as economic – social rights in our country.

Violet: And Mr Majongwe, still on the same issue. You know teachers are demanding wages in line with the Poverty Datum Line and generally most sectors are asking for salary increments, but my question to you is would it be enough for the government to give you more money considering the inflationary environment?

Raymond Majongwe: Ya, I think the most important thing here is, are we, as citizens, supposed to have a decent life? If we agree and say ‘yes’, then we shouldn’t question whether it’s going to be inflationary, whether it’s going to exacerbate the situation, because the question that many of the teachers then ask me and ask those in leadership is ‘are we responsible for what is happening now.’ Can we therefore forgo a better living because we want to fight an army that we didn’t create? I think the short answer that I would give you is that we cannot be subjected to poverty in a country that we know has milk and honey as we have obviously had and we have seen. We cannot allow just a selected number of people to enjoy on our behalf. We are simply making a very clear statement that if the government is going to make a position that say the Poverty Datum Line stands at Z$566 000 then why should somebody who went to Teachers College and spent three years there, has been teaching for 17 years, be paid a salary that will allow that person fail to sustain and make sure that their families live normally. How can somebody really go to work and earn a salary that will enable them to buy four bananas a day? That’s unacceptable. So we are basically asking for the bare minimum, the PDL of $566 000 and in consulting the University of Zimbabwe Lecturers we were told that it has even left Z$566 000, it’s now around Z$642 000 which means we are even going to be changing the figures very soon.

Violet: But, do you agree that unless you know the concerned groups realise the need for a new constitution and fundamental reforms there won’t be any long lasting change because Mugabe can just print more money?

Raymond Majongwe : Ya, ultimately nobody doubts that. We are one of the few organisations in the country that even went to the MDC and said you cannot go into an election as long as the constitution still stands. I personally went into a public meeting with Morgan Tsvangirai and said in very clear and certain terms that you cannot engage ZANU PF in an election which you are going to lose anyway. I’m really surprised that the MDC; both MDCs; went and participated in the Chiredzi South by-election. And you then say to yourself ‘do these people really know what they are trying to fight, what were they going to benefit from this particular by-election when all these people are suffering? What exactly is going to be happening if people are going to be engaging in the Senate elections when the people are suffering because ultimately as far as the constitution remains the one that was smuggled into this country then the poverty and its perpetuation will remain the stark reality; people will continue suffering.

Violet: Mr Coltart, you have argued in the past that the Opposition must continue to participate in elections and Parliament also, but we have seen how ZANU PF took the Chiredzi South by-election because it controls the electoral process and how it controls Parliament. Do you ever sit down as the Opposition to analyse, to see if you have made any meaningful contribution to your overall goal?

David Coltart: Well, I still believe, surprisingly enough, that we have to participate in elections. I agree with Ray completely that there’s absolutely no prospect of the Opposition ever winning power through the electoral process because ZANU, as demonstrated this past weekend, are simply not going to allow that to happen. But, it comes back to the point of using every possible means to challenge and expose the regime. Had we not participated in the election in 2000 and exposed the violent side of ZANU PF, the pressure that has been brought to bear on ZANU PF by the international community would never have happened. The same applies even to this recent by-election in Chiredzi. Had we not participated ZANU would have just won that by-election, we would never have been able to show how food has been used as a political weapon down in Chiredzi South as it was. And, all of these things are building blocks, and it’s taken a long, long time, far too long for us to expose the real ZANU PF. But bear in mind that ZANU PF was viewed primarily by African states primarily as a liberating Party, as a democratic Party, as a Party that offered hope not just for the people of Zimbabwe, but for the whole of Africa. Now those of us down in Matabeleland who saw the real nature of ZANU PF between 1982 and 1987 knew that this was a Party that offered no hope for Zimbabwe but it’s taken a long, long time, through elections, through civic actions, through strikes, to expose the true nature of this Regime. And, that battle isn’t over, but, I still believe that we’ve got to use every single means at our disposal that includes participating in Parliament, it includes challenging the Courts.

Violet: But Mr Coltart, you know you have been challenging the elections for the past seven years and its there on the record that the electoral process is flawed in Zimbabwe . What else can you gain from participating in elections or Parliament right now when Mugabe will never allow free and fair elections?

David Coltart: Well, let me stress one thing at the outset in answer to this. I have not argued, and none of my colleagues have argued that the electoral process is the only way or even the main way to challenge this Regime. All that we’ve said is that it’s one of several means and that we’ve got to use every single means. We’ve got to use civic action, we’ve got to use strikes, we’ve got to use international pressure, we’ve got to challenge through the courts, we’ve got to be in Parliament, we’ve got to participate in elections. So, it’s wrong to say that any of us have said this is the be all and end all of the struggle, it certainly isn’t, it is one small part. But, let me answer your question. We have to continue to challenge ZANU PF because ZANU PF puts out that it is the Ruling Party; that it is the Party that continues to enjoy the majority support from the people. And we also need to bear in mind that we are dealing with a very jaded International Community. An International Community that’s been sucked into Iraq and Afghanistan and a whole range of other international crisis and it’s losing patience and many countries, we’ve seen with France and Portugal and other countries, are looking for any excuse to reintegrate ZANU PF into the International Community. And one of the ways of making sure that ZANU PF remains a pariah is by showing that it lacks legitimacy, that it does not enjoy the support of the majority of people, and we do that through the electoral process

Violet: And Mr Tsunga, your thoughts on this? Should the MDC continue to participate in a flawed electoral process and also participate in Parliament?

Arnold Tsunga : Ya, I think participating in Parliament, there shouldn’t be a big problem because, at the time of participating in elections, there was absolutely no questioning about the correctness of the MDC participating in elections. But I think post those elections there has been a credible concern on the part of a significant number of Zimbabweans whether continued participation is a correct thing to do or not on the part of the MDC in the absence of the opening up of the democratic space that is necessary for effective civic participation in the affairs of the nation. So, I think the concerns on whether continued participation in fact does not give greater legitimacy to processes that we view as fatally flawed. I think it’s a genuine concern and any action on the part of the political players to continue giving an impression that they are giving Zimbabweans an opportunity to choose when quite clearly the playing field is such that the Zimbabwean’s right to effective civic participation in the national affairs is a mirage in the present circumstances. I think it introduces a little bit of scrutiny on the political players in terms of their genuineness to continue participating. So, speaking as a citizen, I really think there is a need to really explore whether we are increasing the course of oppression this way or we are actually giving ZANU PF the moral high ground to say the Opposition have got sour grapes because they have lost elections and therefore they now want to go on to the streets because simply because they cannot get into power through legitimate means. So I really think it’s an area that the Political Parties need to look at again.

Raymond Majongwe : I just wanted to say that many Zimbabweans, and I’m talking of the people who are on the street, they now don’t understand why the MDC has been going to Parliament. For instance, all these other laws were passed when the MDC was there. And, the question that they now ask is ‘would it have made any difference, wouldn’t we have made more gains if ZANU PF was alone in Parliament and the momentum would have increased on the streets and the people outside Parliament’. Because, now many people see the Parliamentarians on television, because I’m taking about the layman. The person who sees MDC Parliamentarians participating in flawed processes, also going out of the country on state sanctioned visits, visiting the ZBC, we see them on television, visiting the GMB, we see them on television. Now it appears as if the MDC is now part of the gravy train and these are the people who matter; these are the people who vote. Hence the apathy that you are going to find, the people are going to say ‘after all the MDC and ZANU PF are enjoying there in Parliament’. So, ultimately, I am convinced if the MDC really wants to salvage anything then they must pack their bags out of that Parliament, go back to the people and say ‘the mandate that you gave us, we have benefited nothing from it’. Then obviously people are going to say ‘yes, let’s do this together’.

Plus the other thing that I would obviously have wanted maybe Mr Coltart to respond to is the people are saying ‘is it true that the split that exists now within the two MDCs is a ZANU PF sponsored project?’ Because, how obviously are you going to have the MDC fielding the candidates where the other MDC has also fielded the other? And then they continue using the name of the MDC; what is the ultimate agenda and attention of having two MDCs? And many of the people ask ‘do you really think ZANU PF under Robert Mugabe will allow another ZANU PF to be formed under any other leader?’

Violet: Mr Coltart are you able to respond to that, the issue of splitting the vote and the ZANU PF connection?

David Coltart : Oh absolutely Violet, let me respond to the splitting of the vote. I think everyone in their right mind would acknowledge that the current situation prevailing in Zimbabwe where you have all this confusion created by two MDCs is to put it mildly, unsatisfactory, and, the sooner both factions agree on either re-unification or some form of alliance or to agree to disagree and have different names, the sooner that happens the better. Because, there’s no doubt the split plays into the hands of ZANU PF and I don’t think that the rationally minded people in either side of this divide; in either faction; are happy about the situation. The sooner that we can resolve that the better and, as you know, there are talks taking place, there’ve been very positive talks taking place in the course of the last few months and I hope that shortly with goodwill shown by both sides we can resolve this and as I say, either re-unite these two factions or agree to a functional coalition so that we remove that confusion. Let me also say, in response to Ray, I have no doubt that ZANU PF and the CIO have been involved in this division and that they have fuelled it, that they have infiltrated both factions and that there are people in both factions who are working as hard as they can against any form of re-unification or coalition. That would be a natural thing for a fascist organisation like ZANU PF to do and we need to be vigilant and constantly identify those people who are working against this common goal and working to divide.

But let me conclude briefly by coming back to his first point; that is Ray’s first point; about participation in Parliament. I agree with him that Parliament has not achieved what we hoped it would achieve in 2000, that a range of oppressive legislation has been passed despite the fact that many of us have argued valiantly in Parliament until 4.00am in the morning to oppose it. But, I still believe, and I come back to the point I made just now, that if you don’t use every means; that is every peaceful non-violent means at your disposal, you create a much greater possibility of this country degenerating into violence, degenerating into a coup or something like that. And, that cannot be in this country’s best interest. And so, whilst yes, I agree with Ray when he questions the effectiveness of being in Parliament, I think one has to say that our presence in Parliament has in many respects furthered the struggle, has exposed the true nature of this regime. If you just look, for example, at what is happening with the Parliamentary Committees in Parliament at present with the revelations coming out about ZISCO and ZUPCO and other things; this Contempt Committee which has now been set up regarding Obert Mpofu. They don’t change things overnight but they undermine the Regime and our participation in there assists in that undermining.

Violet : But, let me just go back to the issue of the talks, how long will these talks last or take because doesn’t the MDC risk being overtaken by events? We’ve seen how the workers have been on strike for the last few weeks, Doctors have been on strike since December, the Teachers for the last three weeks and the MDC are still debating about talking. How long will this take?

David Coltart: Violet I think that your criticism is entirely valid, these talks have been going on for far too long. They’ve gone on in fits and starts and quite frankly we need to progress them. I don’t personally understand, at this juncture, why there has been a delay, the last talks took place in late November and there’s now been a delay of some two months and it’s up to the leadership in both factions to move these talks along. But, just to come to your other point, of course there is a danger that the politicians are going to be overtaken by events but as a patriot, rather than a politician, I say ‘so be it’. If there are other groups that are more active such as WOZA or the NCA or the Trade Union Movement, who get the job done, well good luck to them. Because ultimately, if we are patriots; if we are interested in the future of Zimbabwe and a democratic Zimbabwe then our future doesn’t necessarily reside in the MDC, either faction of it, coming to power. Our future resides in us pressurising this Regime into agreeing to a new constitution, a new democratic constitution, democratic institutions, fresh elections that are genuinely free and fair, and ultimately that will usher in a new democratic era. And, that democratic era may see a country ruled by one faction of the MDC or a united MDC or a coalition of the MDC or perhaps new Political Parties. But, that isn’t what should concern us. What should concern us is the ultimate goal of bringing democracy to Zimbabwe

Violet: And before we go and before I get your final thoughts, I just wanted to go back to the issue of the Rule of Law, and this is a question for Arnold Tsunga. We talked about how the Police continue to defy Court Orders. What recourse to assistance can victims get if they can’t get it from the Courts and also if they can’t get protection from the Police who have become their tormentors?

Arnold Tsunga: Ya, you see, it comes back to the issue that the Rule of Law, the justice delivery process takes place within a system of governance, and that’s where there’s been a problem. We’ve had a systemic collapse in this system of government that we are running as a country and you would not expect the justice delivery system, as a sub-system within this main system, to function properly in the absence of political will, in the absence of separation of powers. And, once you talk about separation of powers you are going back to democracy. So, there’s a direct link between absence of democracy and this flagrant disregard of Court Orders by the police. And, in fact, not just disregard of Court Orders, but a situation where the Police force has now been viewed by an African Union organ as an extension of a Political Party, which means they are not carrying out their policing duties, they are merely exercising a political function to prop up ZANU PF at the expense of other parties. So this goes to democracy; this goes to a situation where you cannot dissociate or extricate the Rule of Law situation from the greater democratisation project.

Violet: So what can people do? This is a question I had asked Raymond Majongwe at the beginning of this teleconference that is this why there are civil wars because people are then forced to take matters into their own hands.

Arnold Tsunga : Ya, when I say that you cannot distinguish the Rule of Law from the greater democratisation process, what I’m simply saying is that which means the only way in which Zimbabweans will be able to get a return to the Rule of Law, in the absence of political will on the part of ZANU PF, is to then go through processes where they begin to demand their democratic space back. And, this is what has been manifesting itself in terms of the strikes that have been taking place from the beginning of the year up to now where you are beginning to see people engaging collectively in processes where they are claiming back their democracy, claiming back their rights from what they perceive to be a dictatorship environment.

Violet: And Raymond Majongwe, a final word before we go?

Raymond Majongwe : Ya, I think ultimately whether people are going to have Court Orders in their favour, people are going to have a lot of these High Court positions which say ‘proceed and do that’ and there’s no will to walk the talk, there’s no will to stand and face the violence and brutality. Because, this is Africa . I think this is the lesson that many of our comrades need to understand. This is Africa , and democracy comes to Africans in a very hard way! It’s unfortunate, that’s not what I wish to achieve or wish to experience, but, if people are going to say ‘ya, we have now achieved our goals’; people have to be prepared to have both the blood and the iron concept into play. I am convinced that while we are going to stand up and say ‘we had an Order that allowed people to proceed with this particular meeting, there is this Order to proceed with this particular process’, and the Police are the going to be given the political force to say ‘make sure this doesn’t happen’, and they proceed to do it and the people say ‘ah, what else can we do’, then I think we are obviously going to be losing. We need a process, a group of people in institutions that will stand and say ‘if it means that we are really not going to be listened to, then we are going to take this other defiance route’. And, I will tell you, no other means will bring results besides confronting processes and institutions of injustice.

Violet: Mr Coltart?

David Coltart: Well I beg to differ in a certain respect with Ray and let me stress that I respect you Ray as a great human rights campaigner, but I think the trouble about using the language of confrontation unqualified is dangerous. I differ when you say that ‘this is Africa’, that somehow Africans are different and that one can achieve a Velvet Revolution in Ukraine but that’s impossible in Africa . I don’t think that even our recent history bears that out. I think that in the late 1980’s in South Africa people thought that bloodshed would be the only way of bringing an end to Apartheid. But, that’s not what happened. As we know, there was a miraculous transfer, transition to democracy and the same happened in Ghana under Jerry Rawlings, there was a relatively peaceful transition. And I believe that’s what we still have to strive for. I agree that there needs to be confrontation but I believe very strongly that it needs to be non-violent confrontation and that even if the Police are going to defy Court Orders, we must still go to the Courts and that we must still use every single non-violent means at our disposable. But, we’ve got to be brave. Ray spoke earlier about unjust laws, well, I believe that unjust laws are there to be defied. That was the principle enunciated by Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi and I don’t think we should be any different. But that takes leadership, it takes bold courageous leadership and we now need people like Morgan Tsvangirai, Arthur Mutambara, Ray Majongwe, Pius Ncube, Ray Motsi - the Christian Alliance leaders; all of our leaders throughout the country, Jenni Williams and her brave women, to lead us but to be committed to using non-violent means of confrontation. Only that way will we guarantee a reasonable transition and a secure future for our children and our grandchildren.

Violet: And Arnold Tsunga?

Arnold Tsunga: Ya, you know what I was thinking as a way of ending is that it might be an idea to quote what the President (Mugabe) said when the was confronted with the situation where he had to either comply or defy in terms of the State complying or defying with a Court Order.

Violet : Where was he saying this? Just a reminder?

Arnold Tsunga : It’s cited if you look at some of the Zimbabwe Human Rights Forum reports, I think when we were looking at the Abuja agreement and the Commonwealth Principles, whether Zimbabwe had complied or disregarded the Abuja agreement, there is an analysis which was done by the Zimbabwe Human Rights Forum, and they cited the President in that document.

He said: “the Government will respect judgements where the judgements are true judgements, and, we do not expect Judges will use subjectivity in interpreting the Law. We expect Judges to be objective, we may not understand them in some cases, but when a Judge sits alone in his house or with his wife and says this one is guilty of contempt, that judgement should never be obeyed. I’m not saying this because we would want to defy Judges, in fact, we have increased their salaries recently. We want them to be happy, but, if they are not objective don’t blame us when we defy them”.

So, you can see the direction where the Police get their attitude to Court Orders is coming from. It’s coming from the Chief Executive Officer of this country. And, I think this type of culture is not a culture that supports democracy, that supports the Rule of Law, and, we need to deal with it very decisively. And, maybe just to end, you know the Judge President, when she was opening the High Court this year - Justice Makarau - she said that the Judiciary is under appreciated in our country and she was referring to things like this.

Violet: Thank you very much Arnold Tsunga, Raymond Majongwe and David Coltart.

All: Goodnight.

Violet Gonda: Since we recorded this debate the teachers’ unions struck a deal with the government and accepted a salary adjusted in line with the Poverty Datum Line. Observers say they had come under massive intimidation.

Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa’s Hot Seat programme (Tues 27 February 2007). Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

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