Back to Index , Part 1

"In the Hotseat": Bishops on The Zimbabwe We Want (Part 2)
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
November 07, 2006

Violet Gonda: Welcome to the second part of the programme 'Hot Seat' where we continue the discussion on the new joint church document: "The Zimbabwe We Want: Towards a National Vision " with well known political commentator John Makumbe, Bishop Trevor Manhanga of the Evangelical Fellowship of Zimbabwe and Bishop Levee Kadenge of the Christian Alliance.

We were not able to get Catholic Archbishop Pius Ncube but he will be giving his comments in the final discussion next Tuesday. Last week Dr Makumbe said if the national vision that is being envisaged by the Churches does not look at the politics of things or does not look to changing the status quo, it will fail. I then asked Bishop Manhanga to comment.

Bishop Manhanga: What we are trying to initiate as a Church is dialogue and discussion, and you are quite right and Dr. Makumbe has said it, and we are not advocating a regime change agenda. We are advocating a discussion by all Zimbabweans. Whatever future comes out of those discussions it will be the people that decide. The Head of State has said 'go to the people. Once you have heard correlated what the people are saying, come back to me and report to me what the people are saying.' So, we cannot start this process by saying we want regime change. If that's what the people want, it will come out in what they say but that is not the objective of the Church as we start this process.

John Makumbe: I accept that very much but what about the constitution? You know President Mugabe has already thrown the first stone; he said how can you call the Lancaster House Constitution that it is not a homegrown constitution. Are you going to delete that from your National Vision document then?

Bishop Manhanga: Dr. Makumbe, you are quite right and when we met the President in private he brought up that issue and he said 'look, you people are saying that there must be constitutional change; a home-grown constitution, but they believe that the Lancaster House constitution was a home-grown constitution that was put together by the liberation forces'. Now, he added also, however, ' if that's what the people want then let it come from the people'. So, whilst he has said that, I think he has every right to articulate his position, but if the people overwhelmingly are saying 'we want constitutional change', we will present that to him and say 'this is what the people are saying'. So, at that point he will then have to decide is he going to hear what the people are saying.

Bishop Kadenge: But..

Violet: Yes Bishop Kadenge?

Bishop Kadenge: But His Excellency has said already 'it's non negotiable', then what are they going to do, what are the people going to do? We are a very good people here in Zimbabwe and we listen to our leaders.

Bishop Manhanga: No, Bishop Kadenge, this is what he said the non-negotiable principles are sovereignty, independence, the right to control resources, freedom from foreign domination, I'm quoting him verbatim. He didn't say the constitution is non negotiable.

Bishop Kadenge: and those things are the ones which are really on your summary eh? Those things really summarize the way forward. Those things are the ones which are there in your 'Way Forward', and those things are the ones which are said to be non negotiable. So what then?

Bishop Manhanga: Bishop Kadenge, whenever you say it's a process, everybody will come out with their non-negotiable positions, but as a Church we are hoping . . .

Bishop Kadenge: But look, here is His Excellence who is saying that

Bishop Manhanga: Ya, but I think let's not pre-empt the process. Let's give the process chance.

Violet: But, can I just ask, we've talked about the issue of the constitution, what about the other issues, what are you saying on the issues of the economy, national reconciliation and land reform? Just summarize it for us.

Bishop Manhanga: You want to, I mean, exactly, we are saying lots of things, and if you heard what the President said, he said, 'you have said a lot of difficult things in your document. You have presented a lot of very difficult issues, which we as government and as ZANU PF will have to go back and will look at and we'll make a formal response'. So it will take a lot of time to go blow by blow in terms of the issues that we are raising in terms of all the matters that you are talking about. Under the issue of national reconciliation we bring up the land issue; the problems that have come up as a result of the land issue. We bring the issue around the constitution, we bring the issue of party politics and the issue of the Gukurahundi issue in Matabeleland and we bring up the issue of Murambatsvina; Operation Murambatsvina. So, those are issues which are brought up and we are saying things need to be done about these issues.

Violet: So where is this document and do you think it will modify Mugabe's behavior?

Bishop Manhanga: This document is going to be made available to the general public. We just launched it on Friday and because we were a little bit late to the printers we were not able to bring out the large amount that people are really requesting. The amount of desire for the document right now is overwhelming. I was preaching in Harare yesterday and was swamped by people who wanted the document. We are going to launch it in each province now in the month of November; each Province will have an official launch. We also want to take it to the Districts from there. We will also meet with interest groups, including the Christian Alliance, the War Veterans, members of Business; the CZI, ZNCC, the Traditional Leaders. Each of these separate groups, we are going to meet with them and have discussions with them and present the document to them.

Violet: Now, Bishop Kadenge . . .

Bishop Kadenge: But Violet, Violet this is just buying time eh? Are you with me?

Violet: Why do you say that?

Bishop Kadenge: It's buying time really becausethe issues that are bedeviling this nation are so clear to the Government, to us, and a change has to come yesterday! Why should we wait another six months, what for?

Violet: So what would you want to see happen, and also, on this issue, is this document any different from what the Christian Alliance and other stakeholders are saying?

Bishop Kadenge: No, its not any different,it's actually the same, it's a duplication of what we are doing. There is no problem at all in terms of what the document is saying, but it's the way forward, it's how we articulate our issues and how we envisage change and the time factor, which, when you say they need another six months, you know, these guys got four months to write the document. Now they are looking for six months to go around and then when they've brought it they'll be given another six months to look at it and we are in 2009 or 10. So this is a gimmick to some of us.

Violet: Now, Dr. Makumbe, others may say the Church has become like MDC and ZANU PF, you know, fighting and criticizing each other all the time. Now, do you not agree that, to some extent, there are some good parts to this document, like calling for a new constitution and that draconian laws like AIPPA and POSA should go?

John Makumbe: No, no, no, I agree that the substance elements of the document are quite the usual things that we are talking about as Civil Society, as Civic Leaders, as Academics. But, Violet there is a difference between the product and the process. And, I think the process was really very much in the control of ZANU PF and that's unfortunate. But I also have problems with the fact that you have a document here which says we have thought, we have been thinking for you, now you fill in the gaps, you know of what should be the flesh or the substance of the vision. I have problems with that. As Bishop Kadenge says, really to say ' now we are going to the people, we are going to every Province, every District', we have been there in 1999 we know what the people want. When we changed what the people had asked for in 2000 they rejected the Draft Constitution. The things that are in the document are well known to Zimbabweans. The time period being asked for to re-consult the people is unrealistic. What we need is a roundtable; ZANU PF, MDC, Christian Alliance, and the group, I don't know what they call themselves, who drew up this vision document, and all the other parties that would like to sit round and say 'therefore, the way forward is A, B, C, D.' And, A, B, C, D, can actually be implemented within two to three months at the most.

Bishop Kadenge: Can I talk to you about the divisions in the Church?

Violet: OK

Bishop Kadenge: Ya, I'm really perturbed by this call from both within and outside of asking the Church to speak with one voice. That is very, very commendable; that the Church speaks with one voice, but let's look at history. Where have we seen the Church speaking with one voice? Let me begin with the American situation where Dr Martin Luther King Jnr had to rise up as an individual, and other individual clergymen in the States, and not from the really top of the Church, but from the so-called fringes of the Church and those small Sill Brothers from the mainline Churches and other Churches, change started to gain momentum in the United States.

Let's go to Germany during the Nazi regime this time. Hitler at some point actually initiated at some time that the Churches should join together and speak with one voice. And really, he managed to do that and at some point he appointed a certain Reverend, a certain Mr Mueller, to be the head of the established Church in that country which was really voted against by others, but he finally lost in that game but the Church was established as a single entity there. But, there were individuals like Karl Bath, Dietrich Bonhoefferwho really said it's time we have a confessingchurch in this country, and the confessing Church came up as a result of these individuals, and they spoke against the system and they influenced even the outcome of the German issue.

Let's go to Romania, just a few days before Ceausescu was ousted the orthodox official Church leader wrote a letter to Ceausescu to support him, to say he was in solidarity with the Church, just on the 17 th of December and Ceucescu was ousted on the 25 th of December in 1989. But look, this is the official Church, saying 'we are with you', but, a few individuals outside the Church and outside the leadership of the Church, influenced people to think for and change.

Lets go to South Africa, our neighbour here, the official Church supported the Apartheid system right from the beginning. It was only individuals like Bishop Desmond Tutu, Alan Boesak and other individuals who had to influence a section of the Church to support change in the country, and with so much attack on them and on their persons.

And, coming to Zimbabwe, the sixth example, the same thing, history is repeating itself. The Church leaders, and I support Dr. Makumbe who said I think they are very genuine, I think they don't know what they are in to; the system which they are dealing with which will, and has already, hijacked the process of good intentioned people. So, really, for people from outside and even from inside, to force us to as it were, speak with one voice, there is no one voice. There can be one intention, which is really what is there, but really one voice is impossible on this issue. Had it been that the NVD people, National Vision Document people were following an agenda which they own and control, I don't see us as CA (Christian Alliance) joining them; I don't see why we shouldn't join them. But, because here they are being told what to do and what not to do then we ask 'who owns the process, who is in charge, who is in control?'.

So really, our situation, take it as unique, those who are listening take it from me, take it as unique. We are fighting to work with the Heads of Churches Denominations, we are working towards working with them, yet, as I'm sure you know, they are not prepared to work with us. But, us, as a group will work with anyone. Look, we have been working with Civil Society, all Political Parties. When we had our Save Zimbabwe Campaign on the 29 th July we invited all the Civil Societies, all the Political Parties including the Ruling Party, and unfortunately on that day the Ruling Party did not attend and whatever ensued it is a result of them not coming to that meeting. It's not our problem, but, we had good intentions and we still have those good intentions of bringing Zimbabweans together.

Violet: OK, Bishop Kadenge, I will come back to the issue of what the Christian Alliance is doing but I want to go back to an issue that you raised just now and this is a question for Bishop Manhanga, that the broad view is that on the issues of morality the Church is the authority. But, at the moment it is felt that the Church has vacated its position and has become nothing but a tool in the hands of the Dictator. Now, Bishop Manhanga, do you agree with this?

Bishop Manhanga: Where does that come from that the Church has become a tool? I think people must read the document. I can speak for myself and my colleagues, I stand to be corrected, I would like people, the critics, to produce evidence that we are tools. It is easy to write in the newspapers all these are ZANU PF people. I have been accused of having a farm, I would like people to produce documentary evidence. Myself personally, I was arrested together with Dr. John Makumbe at a meeting in Borrowdale some time back he remembers that very well.

Dr. Makumbe: I do

Bishop Manhanga: So, people must not just jump on this nonsense bandwagon of anytime people try and do something we start getting accused of this and that. All people who say that the Church leaders are in the Government hands, the Church leaders have been bought off, produce evidence, otherwise you are not helping the situation. Produce evidence that shows that the Church leaders as espoused by the Zimbabwe Catholic Bishop's Conference, the Evangelical Fellowship of Zimbabwe and the Zimbabwe Council of Churches have now become people who are speaking on behalf of government. I think that's a big cop out for people to make that accusation without bringing the evidence that that's what has happened.

Violet: I think many people feel that you are being controlled by the Mugabe regime. When you look at the suffering in Zimbabwe can you truly say that Mugabe has been a benevolent leader and converse with him as though he is a normal human being?

Bishop Manhanga: You see you are now wanting us to go onto issues and make judgment statements but what we are wanting to do in our document is illicit dialogue and discussion. For anybody in Zimbabwe; all over the world, wars stop when people start talking. So if anybody in Zimbabwe feels that they want to call people to war or removing the government through those means, they should come out and tell us. What we are saying as Church leaders is even if there is going to be a change of government it must be as people discuss, as people talk. So, all those questions you are asking, give me an alternative to what we are trying to do as Churches. We have stated if we fail we will not be ashamed because we have failed but at least we have tried to move the process as Zimbabweans discussing the future, together. If we fail we will not be ashamed for having tried.

Violet: Bishop Manhanga I think you are being judged by what you say and if you just put the document aside for a minute, you know, you went on national television the other day praising Robert Mugabe you know during the launch of the National Vision document. Now people ask when you are talking with him and having lunch at State House, do you ever question the extent of suffering he has caused the people of Zimbabwe?

John Makumbe: Or do you ever blame him? Do you blame him?

Bishop Manhanga: No Dr. John, let me just ask Violet, you said I went on TV praising President Mugabe, can you quote what I said and what I'm supposed to have? You said people are judging me by what I said or what I am supposed to have said. Tell me what I said?

Violet: Bishop Manhanga you went on TV and you said we want peace not war, we want to work with the government, we don't' want to go back to the negative things. That is actually trying to cover up, that's what people believe; that you are actually covering up for the Mugabe regime, you are being used to sanitize the regime. Is this not the case?

Bishop Manhanga: Read the document

Violet: No, I'm not talking about the document, I'm talking about what you said on TV after the launch, when Mugabe was sitting there at the launch. You came out on national TV and you were praising.

Bishop Manhanga: That's right and I will say it again to all your listeners. We want peace not war in Zimbabwe. We want to be healers not hurters, that's what I said and I will say it again. Is that praising anybody? It is saying whilst we know what has happened in our country we are looking for a way forward because above all we thank the Zimbabwean population because they have refused to start fighting in the streets like other African countries. That's what I said, we are continually calling our people to peace because they are peace-loving people. That in no way can be seen as bolstering anybody. It is calling upon Zimbabweans, we don't want to see our people just being floated and fighting each other, why should we call our people to do that.

Violet: Can you tell the whole world that the beating of the ZCTU officials who were championing the rights of the downtrodden, can you say that Mugabe's policemen reaction was justified for example and where is the Church . . .

Bishop Manhanga: We have never said that that action was justified. Have we come out and said that that action was justified? We are on record, check what we said as Churches. Its just unfortunate that maybe when the Churches speak on certain issues the press doesn't put it there. We did not justify the beating of innocent people. We haven't and we never will.

Violet: So where was the Church when this happened? If the Church has the moral authority to speak out against injustices where was the Church when this happened last month?

Bishop Manhanga: The Church is where it always has been and the Church is always speaking . . .

John Makumbe: (Laughs)

Bishop Manhanga: You will find that you might not hear it in London, it is no indication that the Church is not speaking.

Violet: Dr. Makumbe do you agree with what Bishop Manhanga is saying?

John Makumbe: Not at all! Not at all! Once the Church enters the political arena, which these clergy did by having lunch with Mugabe at State House, then every political thing that happens you are either for or against the perpetrator! You cannot, as the Church is saying, say we are not for war we are for peace even though the person who is sitting in front of you as Head of State is waging a war against the people who are in your pews and he is destroying them through Gukurahundi, through Operation Murambatsvina, through corruption and so forth and then you actually say it! In 1980 the hand of reconciliation was extended by the government and it was scorned and you said we are not going to let that happen again. You were literally saying to Mugabe you are a fantastic gentleman, you extended the hand of reconciliation. You were not looking at 2000 and what Mugabe did to devastate this economy, to devastate the racial situation in this economy by killing not only whites but blacks also! And you then went on to say 'we are not going to apportion blame'. How can you actually say you can't apportion blame for Murambatsvina, Gukurahundi and corruption to the man who is sitting right in front of you?

Bishop Manhanga: Ok, let me come in Violet. It is a fact that a lot of the white people did not accept reconciliation in 1980, lets not make as though it never happened. Racial discrimination continued in this country, and what I'm saying is if we reach a stage now with this dialogue and discussion where we appeal for reconciliation all sectors of Zimbabwean society genuinely move. It includes the Ruling Party, it includes the opposition. When I say we will not apportion blame what I'm saying is let's not just say blame this person. We can blame all round; everybody in one way or another may contribute to a particular problem. We are not saying that there's people who are not guilty, we are not saying that. So you know my dear friend Dr. John Makumbe, we need to get together and have a good discussion. Why shouldn't I discuss with you, defend what I said on Saturday (laughs).

John Makumbe: (Laughs heartily)

Violet: But you know what, let me go back to Dr. Makumbe because in a way Bishop Manhanga has raised a pertinent issue that Zimbabwe needs to move on. How do we do that? So I'm asking Dr. Makumbe that is it not possible that the Church can encourage the Government to care about the suffering masses in Zimbabwe?

John Makumbe: It is very possible and believe me, the men and women in this group, which drew up this vision I respect them thoroughly, especially Dr. Manhanga, and I know that they can do a very good job. And I would like to urge them not to look at six months, not to look at going into the Districts, the Provinces and so forth. We know the Zimbabwe we want. The Zimbabwe we want is without Robert Mugabe as President. The Zimbabwe we want is without AIPPA; it's without POSA, it's without this suffering, the corruption caused suffering. It's without a lot of the things which are already in the document. Let's get these people around a table in Harare, in Vic. Falls, wherever they want, and let's agree on the next three months to get Zimbabwe back on the road. The Church can play that role Violet.

Violet: It's been said the church is in a very difficult position. Being critical hasn't really made an impact and being soft hasn't helped either. Is the church now trying to confront wrong, but without offending the regime? Join us for the final discussion next week where we will also be joined by the outspoken Archbishop of Bulawayo Pius Ncube.

*Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa 's Hot Seat programme - Tues 7 November 2006. Comments can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

Part 1

Please credit www.kubatana.net if you make use of material from this website. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License unless stated otherwise.

TOP