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"In the Hotseat": Bishops on The Zimbabwe We Want (Part 1)
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
October 31, 2006

Violet Gonda's guests on the programme, Hot Seat, include well known political commentator John Makumbe , Bishop Trevor Manhanga of the Evangelical Fellowship of Zimbabwe , Bishop Levee Kadenge of the Christian Alliance and Catholic Archbishop for Bulawayo, Pius Ncube. They are talking about the new joint ecumenical publication: "The Zimbabwe We Want: Towards a National Vision."

Violet: Last Friday in Harare Church leaders launched a discussion document called "The Zimbabwe We Want: Towards a National Vision". The draft document had been presented to Mugabe at State House earlier in the week. The document has been written by the three main Christian groups in the country; the Evangelical Fellowship of Zimbabwe, the Zimbabwe Catholic Bishops’ Conference and the Zimbabwe Council of Churches.

But some Church leaders and analysts have been critical of the initiative and described it as being State sponsored and part of Mugabe’s survival plan. To discuss this issue and the role of the Church in the struggle for a better Zimbabwe I am joined on the programme ‘Hot Seat’ by the head of the Evangelical Fellowship of Zimbabwe, Bishop Trevor Manhanga, Catholic Archbishop Bishop Pius Ncube, the head of the Christian Alliance Bishop Levy Kadenge and political analyst Dr. John Makumbe.

Welcome on the programme.

All: Thank you Violet

Violet : I will start by asking Bishop Manhanga to give us a summary of the document. What are you calling for exactly in this document?

Bishop Manhanga: We are calling for discussion and dialogue between all the various stakeholders in the Zimbabwe scenario and for them to look at what we have put down in this document, which is not a final document. It is not cast in stone. It is merely to begin; people to look at certain issues and then give their contributions which we hope will contribute to a final document that can be embraced by all Zimbabweans

Violet: Right, and so who compiled this document and whose initiative was it?

Bishop Manhanga : It’s the initiative of the Church and Church leaders. The people who assisted the Church leaders in writing this document are all people who go to our Churches; contrary to the mischievous things that people are saying. They are well respected Christian people who offered their services to their Church and Church leaders as resource people. So there’s nobody that can accuse the Church of using people who are sponsored by the Government. That is a big lie.

Violet: So what is the vision, what is your vision?

Bishop Manhanga: We are not stating the vision. We are putting things down that can contribute towards the vision. There is a section on ‘Vision and Values’, section three in the document, which talks about our vision of the Zimbabwe we want is a sovereign, involuable and unitary member state of the international community. A nation that is democratic and characterized by good governance as reflected in all its structures, institutions and operations at all levels. A nation that is united in diversity, free, tolerant peaceful and prosperous. A nation that respects the rights of all its citizens regardless of creed, gender, age, race, ethnicity as defined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and, with a leadership that puts the interest of the people of Zimbabwe above personal gain. A nation where all citizens enjoy equal protection of the law and have equal opportunity to compete and prosper. Above all, a nation that is God fearing. That is the vision we have stated.

Violet: Now, Bishop Kadenge, as the Head of the Christian Alliance, your thoughts on this?

Bishop Kadenge: As an individual, really I’m not talking on behalf of Christian Alliance at the moment because we haven’t met to discuss the document, but, as an individual, for me to be very honest, the document is so good. I have no problems with the document and what they are saying is common knowledge to every Zimbabwean that is suffering in this country.

And, my other comment is that you don’t need fifty pages or forty pages to describe our crisis. Just a few sentences like their ‘Way Forward’ which is very good you know. There are five; no sorry, six items which they are recommending as a way forward and that summarizes all that is needed in this country. And for me, going to the people, yes, it’s to legitimize it but what is needed and what we want to be done is already there and it’s there in black and white. And, I want to thank HOCD; the Heads of Denominations for really looking for these people who wrote this document which is really making a road map.

But, my problem is the way they are going about it, because, already, it has been given to the President who has already made a judgment. And, for me, what has been said by the President kills all the six items on their way forward, which are: constitution, dialogue, land commission, repeal of POSA etc and then building bridges and then the Churches offering their global networks as a way of building the future. And, all these, when the President said there are things which are not negotiable, all the six fall in the category of non- negotiable. And then the question is what is the way forward? That’s how I look at this document. A good document and I’m very honest, but, perhaps there are changes which have been done lately to the final document. But, as I was following the document in the process of it being written it is one of the best documents ever produced. But, the way it is being done now there is the question of who is in control, who is in charge, who has the final say, who make declarations and that kind of a thing.

Violet: Now, as the Head of the Christian Alliance; the group that has been trying to bring the pro-democracy groups together, especially the warring MDC factions, did you have any role in this important document calling for a national vision? Were you consulted?

Bishop Kadenge: No. Yes

Bishop Kadenge : There are two answers I am giving. No, in the sense that as an Alliance , as an organization, we were not consulted. But, yes, as an individual Christian who belongs to an organization, like myself, Zimbabwe Council of Churches, those who were part of the team which was making this document were doing it on my behalf and that is the sense which I will say yes, because I am part of that document in terms of where I come from as belonging to the Zimbabwe Council of Churches. But in terms of us as a group; a ‘fringe group’ as you have heard us being called, no, we haven’t had any input.

Violet: Are you a fringe group?

Bishop Kadenge: Oh sister, you know what, in Christianity the scriptures say ‘where two or three are gathered, I am there’. Yes, the other brothers are playing a game of numbers, but I don’t think we are a fringe group. We are people who are called by God for a purpose at this time of our crisis.

Violet: OK, now let me move on. I will come back to you on this matter but let me go to Archbishop Ncube. You have been an outspoken critic of the Mugabe regime but you were one of those clergymen representing the Catholic Bishops’ Conference. What role did you play in the making of this document and are you satisfied with the outcome?

Silence

Violet: Hello, Archbishop Ncube? I think the Archbishop’s phone line dropped out. We have been having problems reaching him on the phone. We will continue with this discussion and we will try and get the Archbishop’s comments later on after this debate. Now, Dr. Makumbe, is the Church in a very difficult situation here, because, as Dr. Manhanga said at the beginning that you know the Church had received some unfair criticism, and, many, including yourself, have criticized the Church leaders for working with the Government on this document? But is it not possible that the three main Church groups genuinely have good intentions and want to work with everyone including the regime?

Dr Makumbe: No, there is no doubt in my mind that the Church leaders have good intention. But, I still find it difficult to forget the past; we have seen the Church being abused by the State in the past. We remember the Muzorewa era where Ian Smith tried to use Muzorewa and the Church to put together an internal settlement, and I see the same thing happening now with Mugabe, and so I find strong similarities between Mugabe and Ian Smith in the way they are handling the Church.

Bishop Manhanga says this particular exercise is the initiative of the Church. I don’t really think so, I think it’s the initiative of the State, because, as you know Violet, this is an outcome of a four hour lunch meeting at State House that the Church leaders were given by Mr. Mugabe. And, it was at that four hour lunch that Mr. Mugabe pleaded with the Church leaders to put together a document about the Zimbabwe that the people of Zimbabwe may want. He even asked them to persuade the Western democracies that have imposed travel restrictions on Zimbabwe to lift them and so forth. And, of course, therefore it is not the Church’s initiative. It is really the Government’s initiative and that is why it goes on to exclude the Christian Alliance which is viewed by the State as essentially supporting opposition and Civil Society.

And so, that makes me very uncomfortable. And then, secondly Violet, I also would like to ask Bishop Kadenge there is this document you say it is a good document, are you going to disband as the Christian Alliance or are you going to continue with whatever action programme you have? And, I have a problem with exclusivity in the leader’s document. They have already brought out a document which they say people can input into but they actually have excluded for example, the Christian Alliance. They have not really worked together as the Church leaders. There are Church leaders who are pro-government; there are Church leaders who are not pro-government and I don’t want to call them anti Government.

Bishop Kadenge : Can I come in?

Violet : Yes, Bishop Kadenge?

Bishop Kadenge: No, we are not going to disband. Actually, you know, some of the things which are in their document; not some, most, all of the things, let me say some of them, we had some of the things on our agenda, on our programme. Perhaps we will ask each other to join hands, like prayer rallies and all that have you. But, really the document is not going to push us aside as it were, but we are not going to continue with this antagonism of not wanting to work with anyone, but, as you have read, and as you have heard, they continue to exclude us and also to call us names. Recently, the paper was quoting one of the Bishops as saying we are a very small group of Christians. We don’t mind being called a small group. It’s a small group and it can also be a channel for people to go to heaven.

Violet: I’ll go to Bishop Manhanga to tell us more about this. That if you consulted all stakeholders, why was the Christian Alliance, which is a key group, although small, that has been trying to bring pro-democracy groups together, why were they isolated?

Bishop Manhanga: I think that first of all we must look at the set up here. The Christian Alliance as Bishop Kadenge has ceded, was not excluded because Bishop Kadenge is a Methodist, his Bishop was involved in the process. Some of the other fellows in Christian Alliance are members of the EFZ which I head. They were not excluded. They are represented through those organizations, and so to say that we deliberately went and excluded people is not correct. These brothers are included because they still hold membership in ZCC; they still hold membership in EFZ. Some of them, they attend our meetings where this process is being discussed. So, the Christian Alliance was not being excluded.

Now, to come to what my dear friend Dr. John Makumbe was saying, it’s not totally true to say that this initiative came out of the meeting which was held on the 25 th November at State House. When we went to State House what President Mugabe said was ‘I would like the Church to come up with a way forward. You have made all these issues here, you have criticized this, you have criticized this. As Churches, what do you say as the way forward? Give us something as Government, it’s no use just criticising and bringing up these issues.’ So, when we left State House we said ‘right, let’s put together something and present it before Government’.

And, some of the people that we invited to sit with us in this process of looking at – to help us - were people like Professor Walter Kamba; under no stretch of the imagination can Professor Kamba be seen to be a ZANU PF pro-Government person. Professor Marvelous Mhloyi, Dr. Kaulemu, Dr. Chikafu from Africa University , Dr. Goodwill Shana - a vast range of different people. As was said, Archbishop Pius Ncube was with us on the final day when the draft document was looked at by all three bodies. Now I don’t think anyone can accuse Archbishop Pius Ncube of being a pro- Government person, but he looked at the document and said ‘this document perhaps is giving us a way forward’, and he, as part of the Catholic Bishops endorsed this process.

Then to say that the leaders of the Church who went to present this document to the Head of State are pro government; it’s not being honest, it’s not being factual, it’s not really a good way of looking at things, because, in that group of Church leaders … I’ll give you another example, when Bishop Nemapare came up for election within the ZCC and he lost the election, people then said ‘he lost because he went to State House’. However, the Bishop who has replaced him, Bishop Wilson Chichebu of Bulawayo ; the Anglican Dioceses of Bulawayo, he was with us on our recent visit to go and see the President. He was with us. When are the people going to stop saying that any person who tries to look at the way forward and engage with the Government is pro-Government or pro-MDC. We have met with Morgan Tsvangirai, for those people who want to know. We have met with several leaders of opposition parties in part of this process and we will continue to do so. In fact, even this very week we will be engaging with leaders of the opposition, for them also to officially receive the document and make their comments.

Violet: But Bishop Manhanga on the issue of meeting with the opposition, what is the real situation with this because it is reported that the MDC actually snubbed the presentation of the document last week?

Bishop Manhanga: They didn’t snub the document. Unfortunately this launch was delayed several times because the Head of State’s schedule could not accommodate him coming and so we delayed the launch, at which time, when the letter of invitation went to Mr. Tsvangirai, he was campaigning for his candidates in Matabeleland , We received word from his office. And, there’s no antagonism from Mr. Tsvangirai so I cannot say where people got that from that they snubbed the process.

Violet: What about Arthur Mutambara?

Bishop Manhanga: Arthur Mutambara, my office in Harare has said he was given an invitation but he said he wasn’t coming.

Violet: So in other words, the other MDC camp snubbed the launch?

Bishop Manhanga: Well, if that’s your interpretation, that’s your interpretation, that’s what my office in Harare said is that he said he wasn’t coming. If that’s a snub, well, that’s no problem.

Violet: Now Dr. Makumbe, let me go back to this issue. Is it really possible to have a national vision with the current regime in power?

Dr Makumbe: No Violet that is one of the things that is missing from the document, the National Vision document, as it is called. It doesn’t envisage regime change. In fact, last week, when the document was launched, several of the people who spoke at the launch openly stated that they do not subscribe to illegal removal of the current regime; in other words, they don’t subscribe to an illegal regime change. Well, first of all, there is no Zimbabwean who advocates illegal regime change but, people like myself, we advocate regime change. Violet, the reason why I say that is that we have seen ESAP, we have seen MERP, we have seen NERP, we have seen NEDP, and all these are actually national visions but they have all not included anything about regime change; about retiring the current President and replacing him with a more progressive, younger and more dynamic leadership. And, if the national vision that is being envisioned by the Churches does not look at the politics of things; does not look to changing the status quo, it will again fail, like these other programmes failed.

Violet: Due to phone problems we lost the Catholic Archbishop for Bulawayo , Pius Ncube at the beginning to the teleconference, but we did manage to interview him separately to ask him what role he played in the making of this document?

Pius Ncube: Very little. This document was sent about 24 hours before we met, by email, on the grounds that they wanted to keep it confidential and not let the press tear it to pieces. Then, 24 hours after that we met, the Catholic Bishops meet on their own, the EFZ met on their own and the ZCC met on their own. Then we met for three hours on an important document of that nature. It was rushed through honestly. I mean if a document is to be important then it must be brought in good time and someone must read it perhaps two or three days and consult other people around you. It was a rushed business I assure you. Hush hush it was. Haraka haraka!

Violet: And so are you satisfied with the outcome? Is it a sound document?

Bishop Pius Ncube: Well I just thought ‘OK, half a loaf is better than nothing’. If we could get peace initiatives going and we settle the problems for the people of Zimbabwe and people return to normalcy and live happy lives. Zimbabweans are desperate; we are looking for every possible way. So we are saying if this document can be a road map towards peace then perhaps half a loaf is better than nothing.

But, nevertheless, efforts have been made in the past. Trevor Manhanga himself was part of the so called ‘Troika’ and I hear that they spoke forty five times to ZANU and forty times to MDC from 2002 up to 2005. They hardly made any headway. The problem is Mugabe himself, is he going to listen to yearnings for peace? Is he going to put the people first before his power? OK, the document has been produced, although it’s a sweetishdocument, perhaps it raises the basic issues which should be addressed. There are many other issues which I think should have been highlighted but OK, at least something to begin with.

Hopefully, if it is taken seriously by government, but the problem is that government only goes for what feathers their nest, what furthers their power and furthers their filling up their pockets with people’s money. If they could go beyond that Violet, then, indeed, we would be very happy because the Churches are being told ‘hey you Churches, you are standing around folding your hands while people suffer, can’t you do something?’ Some people even say ‘well the last democratic space seems to be the Churches, so you guys do something about it’. So, it’s an effort, perhaps a small effort but half a loaf is better than nothing. I’m not properly satisfied, as I told you; it was rushed up, the whole thing.

Violet: So Archbishop, you have been an outspoken critic of the regime and just when I was talking to the other panelists Dr. Makumbe was really critical of this document in terms of working with the regime. Now, you were part of the Catholic Bishop’s Conference and you endorsed this document and even Bishop Manhanga said you were with them on the final day, so does it mean in this case, you don’t think the Church is being manipulated and used by the regime, Robert Mugabe in particular?

Archbishop Pius Ncube: That, Violet we have to watch critically. Those people, we’ve known them for the last 26 years, particularly the last seven years since 2000. They’ve shown that for them, what matters is power at all costs even if things break up and people suffer and Murambatsvina and what have you. So, we have to be critical, to watch critically because I think they will try and manipulate us as they have done in the past. But I do support the document, I do think it’s a good instrument. My attitude is ‘let’s try it, and see’. It might in the end achieve something good because I think they in ZANU suffer; a lot of ZANU underdogs they suffer a lot, OK, the top brass they are enjoying themselves, but, their followers, they suffer a lot. They are under pressure to stick with them; often they are forced to stick with ZANU. In view of the suffering that is there, my attitude is OK, let’s do our best and not give up and let’s be optimistic etcetera.

Violet: It’s said nobody knows better than the Church what is going on in the country. If the Church has the moral authority to speak out against injustice, why is it silent? Stay tuned for this discussion next week.

*Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa ’s Hot Seat programme - Tues 31 October 2006. Comments can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com

Part 2

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