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Part
2: Transcript of "Hotseat"- SW Radio Africa talking to
Zimbabwean women activists & opposition leaders
Violet Gonda,
SW Radio Africa
September 05, 2006
Back to Part 1
Transcript of the Part
Two of the Programme ‘Hotseat’ in which Violet Gonda continues her
teleconference discussion with Zimbabwean women activists Jenni
Williams and Thoko Matshe and opposition politicians Sekai Holland
and Priscilla Misihairabwi Mushonga. Broadcast on 5 September 2006
Violet:
Welcome to part two of the teleconference discussion with the women
leaders of the opposition movement in Zimbabwe debating the issue
of mass action unity in the pro-democracy movement. Our guests are
Jenni Williams, the Co-ordinator of the pressure group Women of
Zimbabwe Arise or WOZA; Zimbabwe Women’s Activist and former chairperson
of the NCA Thoko Matshe; Secretary for Policy and Research in the
Tsvangirai MDC Sekai Holland and Deputy Secretary General of the
Mutambara MDC Priscilla Misihairabwi Mushonga.
Thoko Matshe picks up from
where the debate ended last week on whether or not the people have
become spectators waiting for change to happen.
Thoko:
There’s a lot of things that are happening. I was at a meeting with
about 180 women that were dealing with the issues of the struggles
that we’ve had; the Murambatsvina’s and all that. OK? That was another
group looking at how to survive, how to empower themselves, how
to go over their fear. There are different initiatives that are
going. For me, I’m saying two things alright. Those initiatives
need somehow to link together to be able to be then something that
is at a certain point that can push with the same force. But, secondly,
I still think, yes, some people they might not be spectators, but
they are not putting their mouth where their money is. They are
more about just the survival, the fighting of the poverty and things
like that and we still have a big chunk of people that think there’s
politics out there and there is food that I have got to get and
there’s complaining about this and this; me; politics, it’s something
that I don’t want to. I still think we have a large chunk of that.
Sekai:
I agree with you Thoko, but I think that really the important thing
there is that the Zimbabwean people again don’t have the situation
or the environment of understanding where historically we are at
now. There’s been a sixteen year guerrilla war of which nobody knows
about because there’s no inter-generational connectivity. All we
hear is people saying they fought the war. They are the ones who
are beneficiaries; people know they lost relatives in the war. What
have they benefited? No one tells them why they have not benefited.
You have all sorts of divide and rule refined on the ground. The
processes you are talking about Thoko are extremely necessary. When
you cut a tree down, when the leaves start coming out again; that’s
where we are at. And, that the linkages you are talking about are
actually taking place and I really believe that we are on course
and we are really going in the correct direction. In the multi-faceted
thrust that are taking place, there’s been huge things achieved
by yourself when you were in the NCA, by the women’s movement. I
keep saying this to everyone all the time that the linkages are
occurring. We don’t have a tradition as Africans, as scholars in
Africa of taking the correct subjects in our environment to write
and then see how and what we have achieved, in what time frame and
where we need to go.
Violet:
Now, Jenni, let’s get your thoughts on this. You know, even though
there is unity of purpose, do you think it’s essential that people
with different approaches find different paths?
Jenni:
I think you know we shouldn’t over-theorise this problem because
I think that we might think that we are theorising and we will find
a solution, but I think actually therein lies our problem; we have
theorised too much. It’s time to stop talking and start doing something.
And, if we start to do something, all those initiatives that are
happening here and there could become more focused and when you
start to do things those people who are wanting to do and stop talking
will begin to take steps in one direction and focus. The bottom
line that we have is we can call an election as part of mass action,
but the point is that we have someone who’s an expert at rigging
elections. We now can no longer exercise those democratic rights.
The only way open to us is people power and that involves doing
things and not theorising, and I think, for me, that is the bottom
line. The other issue is on the liberation war. Yes, a liberation
war was fought, but what is the result? The result is further disempowerment
of the people. The result is there is no health, there are no jobs,
no facilities, there’s no education; all of those things. But, it’s
time to stop complaining about those. Remove the system that has
put this further persecution in place, and the only way we can do
that is by doing something. If we talk of social justice we can
now complain on and on and on, but now the time is to demand it.
And, the only way we can demand it is people power in the street
with those brave enough to do it. If they’re not brave enough and
they want to spend time cooking it in the kitchen, please let them
stay there and let other people get out and actually start doing
it.
Violet:
Priscilla, can you comment on this? Jenni says people want to see
tangible results
Priscilla:
I think what the problem is, the basic problem in this country is
that we have created individuals and institutions who believe that
they are the only ones who are able to do certain things in a certain
way, and we therefore create a crisis of expectations. I still go
back to my point Violet. Mass action is only but one; going into
the streets is only but one way of pushing and pressurising the
regime. There are other ways and other methods of pressurising the
regime so that it can open up spaces. In fact, sometimes I actually
think that it is because we have become so one-dimensional that
we create the kind of problems that we face as Zimbabweans. We go
out and we say to Zimbabweans: the only way to get rid of this regime
is for people to go into the streets. Some of us have participated
in mass actions and final pushes before. We have had women getting
raped, we have had homes being destroyed and there has not been
any support system in this country; not any support systems in the
international world, not the view to create strategy in different
areas. In Nkayi it may be a different thing altogether, it may be
about mobilising people and making sure that they go and say ‘we
will not have a ZANU PF representative in this place, whether it’s
in council, whether it’s in parliament, whether it’s in Senate.’
Elections are part of a legitimate struggle in this country. We
will not remove the Mugabe regime until we are able to get people
to get into those areas and vote, and I don’t agree with people,
I know that elections have been rigged, but they’ve been rigged
because we have not been able to sufficiently move the numbers that
we need to be able to ensure that this regime does not. And, even
when it’s done, we need to have the legitimate basis to mobilise
people. People don’t get mobilised if they don’t see something has
been stolen from them at this time. It doesn’t matter which country
you look at where people have gone to the streets and been able
to push a regime to change a position. It’s been after people have
been pushed either told that something have been stolen from them,
which is why we all say that 2002 was probably the time in which
we could have been able to mobilise the sufficient numbers that
are there.
But, my
basic line Violet is that let’s start appreciating that everybody
who’s doing anything in this country is doing a good job. We only
need to begin to live. It’s not the person just going into the street
and been arrested who is doing something that will remove the regime.
It’s that woman who like I said walks 85kms to go to a rally, knowing
pretty well that they will be in trouble tomorrow, they are doing
something to remove the regime. Let’s encourage them and let’s say
‘you are doing a good job, and what more do you need to do? The
WOZA women who gets arrested over the weekend or over one weekend
and stayed singing in the cells, lets encourage them so that the
regime is dealing with multi faceted processes and procedures. So,
not one person has an answer to the problems of this country. You
can say that, then you can begin to move together. But, unfortunately,
we have a situation when somebody says that their strategy and their
way of doing things is the only way that you can get the regime
out. That is not true, and it will not happen.
Violet:
Now Thoko what can you say about this? It seems, if I heard
Jenni correctly, she says that it’s time for action and Priscilla
says mass action is not the only way. Now it seems there is a huge
divide in terms of social standing such that people don’t agree
on the formula for the Zimbabwean crisis. You know, some say there
appears to be a shared goal but there seems not to be a united view.
Shouldn’t there be a meeting of minds between feminists, intellectuals
and the grassroots?
Thoko:
Ah it would be ideal to have a meeting of the minds and we all go
on, but also I think people are saying different things in a certain
way, and, I think I do agree with Priscilla where she says our definition
of mass action is wanting to see people in the streets tomorrow
kind of thing. I think that is problematic. That also negates, like
Sekai said, all the other things that are happening and the other
co-operation that is happening. And, for me, it’s saying that all
those should be encouraged so that we have more people actually
taking part because my point of contention is that there are too
few people struggling. There is that woman who walks that much,
there are those 100 and whatever women from WOZA who do something,
there is the MDC trying to mobilise within their structures, but,
we do not have the critical mass that is relevant and that talks
to actually the hardships of this country. And, I think the hardships
of this country, the response from me as an individual old Zimbabwean
does not match what we want to do. Yes, there are quite a lot of
people doing a lot of things, but those quite a lot of people and
a lot of initiatives need much more of us to do. And, there is also
the need then to recognise that there will be different strategies
and that bit where people are working together, they should strengthen
that and make it visible most probably. Also, the other thing is
that people want to see what they want to see, and they will then
not see what might be there. But, my contention is that with all
of us Zimbabweans that we really need to be involved in some of
all those initiatives and processes that are happening and maybe
have a way of strengthening them so that the pockets of action can
also build a bulk work to pushing what we want to push through.
Jenni:
What I’m concerned about…
Sekai:
There was something about theory and that people should stop theorising.
Violet:
Sekai, just a sec, I think Jenni wanted to comment to what Thoko
has just said, is that correct?
Jenni:
Yes, I wanted to respond to Thoko and also maybe to ask a question
of Priscilla. Here, I want us to be very clear, because activists
like myself, radical activists like myself look at the definition
of mass action in terms of non-violent people power demanding social
justice, demanding their rights on bread and butter issues. And,
we are just concerned, as the women of WOZA that there is a re-defining
of that word mass action. It is re-defined by politicians, it’s
being re-defined by the media and it’s something that we are very
worried about and, perhaps, for purposes of this interview, it is
important for us to define what we are referring to because I have
no objection to what Priscilla is doing, to what Amai Holland is
doing. Those are important processes, I have no wish to be in Parliament,
but we need a democratic system that will come into place and be
ready to bring a new democratic dispensation when the people power
have achieved their demand for social justice. We must be clear,
but for me a woman walking 65 kms to go and attend a rally is exercising
her political right but it is NOT mass action. Mass action for me
is action and it is by the masses in one fell scoop in a non-violent
activity.
Violet:
Priscilla, can you respond?
Priscilla:
In fact, that’s where the problem is. For me, it’s about civic disobedience;
it’s about pressurising the regime. Elections in this country are
in fact about pressurising the regime. Elections are not a luxury
in this country. Anybody who decides to stand for election in this
country is basically standing up to a regime. They can die, their
children can die, they can loose their jobs, they can literally
lose their livelihood. So for anybody to think that because they
have walked in the streets and they have been arrested that is mass
action. That is not true. Civic disobedience comes in various forms
and it’s important that we respect that. We respect the fact there
are certain individuals right now who are in civic movements who
are unable to live in their homes because just the mere fact of
being said you are in the ZCTU, the mere fact of being called you
are in the NCA, the mere fact that you are Pius Ncube means you
have stood up to a regime. This is an activist Pius Ncube by what
he’s saying and what he’s doing, he’s mobilising people power. So
it’s not about the person who’s going into the street only who can
call themselves a radical activist. Anybody who stands up to the
regime is having some form of civic disobedience, they are beating
on the system. There are risks one way or the other and the more
we begin to appreciate that it doesn’t matter what they have done
or what we are doing, everything is equal in terms of beating the
system. In fact, it goes back to the ZANU PF mentality where ZANU
PF believes that the only person who is said to have dealt with
the Smith regime is the one who held the gun. They are not the only
people that were in the struggle that got the Smith regime down.
The people that were in outside that mobilised the international
community to put sanctions on the Smith regime were standing up
to the regime; they were fighters. The women that carried the sadzas
on their back during the pungwe were beating on the regime. They
may not have held the guns, they may not have shot the soldier,
but they did a part and everybody is a radical activist in whatever
manner. And that woman who is walking, as far as I’m concerned,
it is not just exercising a political right, it is saying a statement;
it is saying ‘to hell with you Robert’, deny me food but I will
continue to be publicly associated with something that you say should
not happen in this country. That’s where we need to get back to
and that’s where my bone of contention is. The more we respect and
thank everybody, no-one is having a luxury in this system. Everybody,
in whatever way they are doing are having disobedience; they are
beating on the system and trying to weaken the system. You may not
think it is the right way, but they are doing something.
Violet:
Amai Holland we will come to you just now but I just…
Sekai:
I have no electricity, I haven’t had water, it’s now dark, I can’t
even write things down so I can go on with the conversation as well,
but can I just say something I am thinking about now about what
Priscilla and Jenni are saying?
Violet:
Alright, OK
Sekai:
Really, time for clichés is gone, if we don’t have our theory
right our practice also doesn’t come out right. If we understood
more our history of what happened before us we might get our mass
action correct because all the actions that people are taking now
in their different outposts, which is how it looks now, is working
towards the actual action that we all want. So, I really think that
we should, when we have a debate like this, try and listen to what
each of us is saying. Because, what each of us is saying is extremely
important in putting in the big pot. I’m sorry I’m talking in the
dark because it’s quite dark now and we have no water or electricity
here in Woodville.
Violet:
That’s Zimbabwe for you! Now, I just wanted to go back to Jenni
Williams because I am sure she would like to respond to what Priscilla
was saying. And, I wanted to add a question for Jenni that do you
believe that the intellectual and/or the feminist agenda is relevant
to the daily existence of people in Zimbabwe at present?
Thoko:
Hey! Violet why do you divide and rule us!
Violet:
No I…
Jenni:
Firstly, I think, what I wanted to clarify, and this I think this
is why we could have been more focused on exactly what we were debating,
because I agree that civil disobedience comes in many forms and
that many Zimbabweans are not spectators; they are civilly disobedient
or respecting their rights more than anyone else. But, you know,
I still come back to the point here of we need to be more responsible
in what we are defining mass action as, and, when we talk about
it, what exactly are we talking about. And why we have a special
point, and I am belabouring this, is because it’s something, mass
action is a terminology and words that is thrown out, in my view,
very irresponsibly. It’s something that needs to be planned and
done very, very carefully and non violently. So I still want us
to be clear are we talking of mass action or are we talking of civil
disobedience because we can argue all of those points but get nowhere.
The other
issue here is it is very important that every single person is engaged
in the Zimbabwean struggle and they are engaged because there aren’t
special shops for intellectuals, there aren’t special shops for
ZANU PF people, there aren’t special shops for feminists. There’s
only one place and one type of bearers cheque, courtesy of Gideon
Gono, that you buy with. They all have to be engaged. But for me
the bottom line is it’s the mothers who are facing most of the burden;
the women in Zimbabwe who are carrying most of that burden on their
shoulders and they aren’t really interested in great intellectual
discourse and they don’t even really want to know what a feminist
is because what they want to know is how can I demand a socially
just Zimbabwe where I will genuinely have rights and my children
will have those rights and I can feel that the liberation struggle
has come to something, because right now, most Zimbabweans think
it came to naught. And I think that for me is the major, major thing,
we don’t want to be divide and rule but right now, unless an intellectual
and a feminist is prepared to come and rub shoulders with those
ordinary people in the street who make up the masses, that’s why
it’s mass action, we aren’t going to get very far.
Violet:
That was Part Two in a series of discussions with the women leaders
of the opposition movement in Zimbabwe. There clearly needs to be
a uniting force to bring groups together to fight for change and
Zimbabweans are looking for role models. But, there are concerns
that divisions still exist within the opposition movement. In next
week’s discussion we see that feelings between the camps are still
raw and that a level of mistrust continues to haunt the opposition
groups. The key issues are given a full airing as the debate continues,
so don’t miss the final segment next Tuesday.
*Comments
and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com
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