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Part One: Transcript of interview with Tendai Biti, Professor Welshman Ncube and Dr Lovemore Madhuku on SW Radio Africa's Hot Seat
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
July 11, 2006

Part One - This programme was broadcast on 11th July 2006

Violet Gonda: We welcome on the Programme Hot Seat the Chairperson of the National Constitutional Assembly Dr Lovemore Madhuku and the two Secretary Generals of the MDC factions; Tendai Biti from the Tsvangirai MDC and Professor Welshman Ncube from the Mutambara MDC.

It's been said Robert Mugabe's skill in staying in power is because of his ability to divide the opposition. Is this what's wrong with Zimbabwe? Are pro-democracy groups not able to put aside their differences and work together for the good of the country?

These are some of the issue we are going to deal with in this teleconference. But first we are going to talk about the alleged issue of violence in the opposition because so much has happened in the MDC in the last few months and the latest reports have shown that the rift in the opposition party has widened. Now the latest is a violent incident that took place in Mabvuku where some senior party official from the Mutambara led camp were severely assaulted. Now the Mutambara camp has accused their rivals from the Tsvangirai faction of sanctioning the violence.

So Professor Ncube what evidence is there that this incident was masterminded by the other side?
Ncube: Well I am not so sure about masterminding, the evidence on masterminding. The things we know for instance are that the chairman of Harare province, one Femai, has publicly issued a declaration that Harare will be a no go area for us and that we would be flushed out of Harare. We didn't believe that he truly meant that. However on this score what we have is that there was a group of youths whom we know are the same youths that were previously expelled from the party in June of 2005, who in fact were part of the large group of people who assaulted Honourable Trudy Stevenson and former Councillor Mushonga and Mrs Manyere.

These youths are known to the three victims very, very well known because they always hang around Harvest House. They have always been in the party and they were positively identified or at least seven or four of them were positively identified by the victims because they are persons who are well known to them. And these are the persons who were expelled by the National Council in June 2005 and were somehow reinstated into the other part of the MDC and they are the same people, by the way, who have been hijacking and seizing vehicles from our drivers and some of them are the subjects of court orders, which remain un-obeyed. So clearly it cannot be disputed who these youths are or at least the seven of them who were positively identified. We can argue as to whether or not they acted on the authority of some senior officials in the other party of the MDC or they did not.

Violet: Now Tendai Biti how does your party respond to these allegations?

Biti: Well I mean, firstly I think you can't "convict a person" on the basis of circumstantial evidence but I think to me there are two things that are fundamental. The first fundamental principle is that the part of the MDC that I represent is not violent and does not condone violence. I think that our record speaks for itself since our congress of the 19th of March 2006. However as I have already made clear in my public statements if there is any evidence that would be un-earthed by the commission of inquiry which we have appointed that connects a member or supporter then due process will take place in terms of the MDC constitution. But personally I have lived in a very violent Zimbabwe. I went through, when I went to school between 1980 and 1985, 20 000 of my fellow Zimbabweans were being butchered in Matabeleland.

When I was at university hundreds of us were beaten up by this regime. When I started practicing law 50% of my practice was defending people or getting people that were getting brutalised by ZANU PF. Over 300 of our supporters lost life and limbs between 2000 and 2005. We lost great cadres like the late Chiminya and the late Talent Mabika, Trynos Midzi and others. Only last year over a million of our people had homes violently destroyed by Zanu PF and so forth. So to me I have no doubt that the principal author and agent of violence in Zimbabwe is ZANU PF. As I speak now there is barbarism, economic barbarism that has caused two million of our people to be in the Diaspora if not three million. The life expectancy in Zimbabwe is 34. 4 000 people are dying each day because of HIV/AIDS.

So if you ask me what is the face of violence in Zimbabwe I will tell you it is ZANU PF and that is beyond reasonable doubt. I will not, and I am also alive of ZANU PF's capacity of generating wedges in the democratic society -in the democratic forces. I am aware of ZANU PF's capacity to create evidence; I defended Ndabaningi Sithole in 1997 and that whole thing was a sham created not by the CIO but by Robert Mugabe directly. So I am aware of the shenanigans of the CIO and I am aware that at this very juncture the one person who is smiling and smiling alone is Robert Mugabe, whilst the opposition or the so-called opposition claws at each other.

Violet: Right. But what about the issues that have been raised by Professor Ncube? Do the names mentioned by the Mutambara camp in the attack against, in the attack on Trudy Stevenson and the other MDC officials - do you know anything about those names? Are they total strangers, are they known to your group? And what about the other allegations that some of these youths were expelled by the National Council but were later reinstated, what can you say about that?

Biti: None of the names except the name of Ndira rings a bell to the names that have been read out to me, I don't know them. But as I said, even if I knew a name there, I wouldn't convict before due process has taken its place. And I have made it very clear in my public statement that the police must act and my understanding is that this assault took place at a lawful meeting of our friends. If that is the case everyone knows that the police and the CIO are always there at those meetings. When you apply for your permission in terms of the Public Order and Security Act, the police use the opportunity of putting their agents there and at Circle Cement which I know very well because I am a Member of Parliament for Harare East, there is actually a small police post inside the police camp. So my biggest question is where were the police when all this was taking place?

And it raises to me the biggest question; what is the role of the police and the CIO in this whole ugly thing? But in saying that in questioning the role of the agents I have made it very clear that if there was subjective involvement then due process should take place in two fronts. First; the police must protect the laws of this country and prosecute and secondly; any of the organisations or any person that had a hand in sponsoring these people must surely be brought to book through due process and to me violence occurs in two ways. There is violence that was perpetrated on Trudy and others - that is regrettable. I see Trudy as my mother and I am totally, totally abhorred by what happened. But to me it's also violence if you proceed to convict an individual without due process. It's even more violence if you allow yourself to be divided when you know the true nature of the police that you are dealing with and all of us here should not be, should have no illusions about the capacity of ZANU PF and the capacity of ZANU PF to create and drive wedges in the democratic forces.

Violet: Dr Madhuku what is your analysis of this issue?

Madhuku: Well I think it's very clear that first there was that very unacceptable conduct where Trudy Stevenson and others were attacked and we agree with everyone who condemns that sort of action. But at the same time I take note of the fact that we have to investigate and see who exactly is responsible and that when people are eventually found out to be who they are I think they should be punished. So from a civic society perspective we have tended to follow the two things that we have heard that firstly; the police are investigating and secondly; that the MDC that Tendai belongs to has instituted internal investigations, so we prefer to leave it at that. But definitely we should condemn that violence.

Violet: Now Professor Ncube there are allegations that your party is trying to get political mileage by milking or making a meal out of this unfortunate incident, now is this correct and also is it possible that these youths may have done this without getting orders from the leadership?

Ncube: Well, firstly I do not understand how it is conceivable that anyone can be accused of trying to get political mileage by stating the facts as they are. And the facts are that Honourable Stevenson, former Councillor Mushonga, Mrs Manyere were in fact assaulted in the manner which has already been publicised and unless if it is suggested that we should keep this secret so that we are not accused of trying to take or milk a political advantage out of it, and all we have done is to state the facts and it is absolutely important that we must state the facts if in fact we are to effectively deal with violence. As Tendai has said, violence is endemic in our society and the large part of that violence is attributable to ZANU PF. There is no doubt about that and they are masters at violence.

But that is even the more reason why we need to be careful ourselves that we do not in fact begin to behave like the enemy and also we should be careful that we do not reproduce the very violence that we are fighting against. And for us this is important and it partly explains the split that took place in the MDC. Part of the dispute in October 2005 was about the manner in which the president's office at that time had in fact sort to handle or underplay the violence, which had occurred in the party. There had been a commission of inquiry chaired by the president at that time, himself, which had found certain people guilty including the security staff in his office. Those had been dismissed by the National Council. He had then reinstated - directed me to reinstate them. I did write them a letter indicating to them that I have been directed to reinstate them. I accordingly reinstated them. And that was for some of us the context in which October 12 2005 took place and it is in that context that some of us will always condemn under all circumstances - violence.

While I accept and agree with Tendai as a lawyer that we should not convict people, we are not in the business of convicting people. We are the victims and we are making the allegations. Those allegations are yet to be proven in court and no one is convicted until a trial has taken place in this instance. Our duty is to make the allegations of what happened and it is for others to sit in judgement.

Violet: Now Tendai, the Mutambara MDC has repeatedly said your camp has violent thugs and even if they are not receiving orders from the top, as the leadership do you not think you really need to address this issue? And also to go further with what Professor Ncube has said, why were these youths and some of these security staff, that he mentioned, why were they reinstated?

Biti: Well look let's get one thing very clear. The one body that is violent in Zimbabwe is ZANU PF there is no question about that. But sometimes the victim and the people of Zimbabwe, the MDC are victims of violence. Sometimes as Frantz Fanon says, the victim can begin to mirror the image of the principle, the image of the oppressor in this case ZANU PF. And of course there are factors that may explain that; unemployment, the harsh conditions and so forth. Which is why there was violence in the MDC and that violence if you are going to talk in terms of post 12 October language, has been in both factions.

I was in Bulawayo on the 13th of November 2005 when two of our youths, one of them actually lost his eye by violence by or friends by the other side. We all know what happened for instance in the past to people like Dr Mudzingwa and so forth. That happens but that has to be put in the context. Where my point of departure is to make violence a structural component in the MDC. It was not. My point is to make violence in the pre-12th October situation a religion in the MDC - it was not. And no one can say, no one can say that the face of the MDC up to the 12th of October 2005 was that of violence. That's not true and we would not have achieved the gains that we achieved if this was a violent organisation. Equally in the same vein we would not have achieved the gains that we have achieved if this was a dishonest and corrupt organisation.

We achieved what we did irrespective of the stolen elections because we were clean, multi tribal, multi racial party that represented a future new Zimbabwe and that is the challenge we have to ensure that we do not detract ourselves because of ZANU PF machinations, we do not detract ourselves from the one fundamental goal that if we are all democrats we should be aiming for. And what we are aiming for is a new constitution in Zimbabwe made by Zimbabweans, for Zimbabweans and free and fair elections by Zimbabweans for Zimbabwean in terms of that constitution so that we deal with the issues of legitimacy in our country, we address the issues of unemployment, we address the issue of food, we address the issues of jobs and I am particularly concerned by exhausting my energy - I have spent my entire life fighting ZANU PF and I am one of the few persons in the top leadership of this party in both formations who can genuinely say I have never belonged to ZANU PF, I have always been fighting it in my life.

I don't want to get to forty and be frustrated that we have not achieved gains or we - who are in charge now- have taken the struggle against Mugabe, the struggle against patronage forty years behind in as much as the split between ZANU and ZAPU in 1962 took and delayed our struggle and attainment for independence by forty years. I don't want to be guilty when judgement day comes, by future generations. I am very clear the enemy is ZANU PF and everything must lie squarely at the hands of ZANU PF. But that doesn't mean that we do not and will not address the issues of violence and as I have said in my own statements I don't belong to a violent organisation and I know, I know that my top leadership none of them had anything to do with the 12th of umm, with what happened last weekend but should evidence unearth and evidence emerge that someone had a role then clearly due process in terms of the constitution must take its place. But we know ZANU PF we really know ZANU PF and I do not know why we have short memories.

Violet: And before I go to Dr Madhuku I just want to get a comment on this from Professor Ncube, clearly an independent commission of inquiry has been set up to investigate this incident, by the Tsvangirai MDC, now why is your party failing to accept this as a way of resolving this issue?

Ncube: We are not failing to accept what is being said by way of the commission of inquiry, which has been proposed or set up, if I understand your question correctly or properly. What we are saying is that we have grave reservations and a great deal of doubt that the intend behind the commission is a genuine one across the board of the leadership of the other part of the MDC. I have no doubt that my friend Tendai is well meaning that he speaks from the heart that he believes what he says but we cannot ignore the facts on the ground. The facts are that for instance the same thugs that we are talking about have been hijacking cars and the last car they hijacked in the centre of Harare is the subject of a court order. The court order directs that car to be returned to us, that court order remains un-obeyed and we know that car is being used openly. In Mabvuku in the campaign it was being used in the presence of the leadership of the MDC.

Even more importantly we know that that car is being parked occasionally at Tsvangirai's house because we have been monitoring it. And you cannot sit as a beneficiary of violent conduct and then expect us to take you seriously when you say you in fact condemn that violence. This is where we have a fundamental problem. The people who are in fact the perpetrators of these violence, at least the young people who are being used we can debate who is using them, are in fact at Tsvangirai's house a great deal of the time and if you go to your videos for instance around the time when Tsvangirai was walking into town protesting the shortage of fuel, those same youths who were expelled were walking with him all the time into town and after they had been expelled by the National Council. And it is very difficult then to ask us to believe that the security people who were found to have organised, co-ordinated the violence in fact participated for instance in robbery of about ZW$21million from Allois Mudzingwa are re-instated, are working as Tsvangirai's bodyguards as I speak to you.

It will be in defiance of logic to then ask me to believe that that sort of leadership is genuine when it says it is against violence. While I accept Tendai Biti's arguments as a person as an individual that he has never belonged to ZANU PF, he has spent all his life fighting ZANU PF - so have I, all my life and this is why some of us take so seriously this issue of violence. And why we are doing the things we are doing we are saying; we do not need another false revolution in Zimbabwe. When we get rid of ZANU PF it must be a genuine new beginning not a false new beginning where you will in fact reproduce the same things that we have been fighting against.

Violet: Now Dr Madhuku I don't know what you can say about this because it seems the allegations are getting more serious. Now do you think it's possible for the two MDC factions to resolve their differences and stop these allegations and start working together for the good of the country?

Madhuku: It is very, very possible everyone in this country is looking forward to the day when the two MDCs resolve the differences. I think what should bind them and what we believe will bind them is their genuine commitment to a new Zimbabwe that is founded on democratic values and the dignity of Zimbabweans. So once they have gone through all these allegations and counter allegations the motions that are associated with the problems that have arisen in the MDC, I have not doubt in my mind that they will resolve it. I mean take this discussion and indeed the discussion that Professor Ncube and Tendai - it takes quite committed Zimbabweans who are on opposite ends as we speak at the moment to engage in this kind of debate and I take it myself that they are doing out of the depths of their hearts and wanting to see a different Zimbabwe. So we should continue to cultivate an environment where eventually will get Zimbabweans fighting for justice in this country working together.

Violet: You know it's been said by the two opposition leaders that Zanu PF have made Zimbabwe a violent society and so it's now expected that everyone has the potential to react violently. But as a civic leader Dr Madhuku what role does the civil society play in monitoring the democratic space and in regulating any brutality in this fight for power?

Madhuku: We I think the problem we are having in Zimbabwe at the moment is the focus that we have all made on the situation in the country, the ZANU PF government and so forth and we have been over stretched. We condemn the violence that was perpetrated but at the same time we have difficulties in really getting our work on the ground to see, for example in Mabvuku, who did it, what happened etcetera. Many people would have loved a situation where these perpetrators were quickly brought to justice and then we proceed with what we are supposed to be doing everyday. But our role really is to encourage society to be none violent and we do it through, as civic society, through our education workshops and also of course we have to be exemplary in what we do everyday. And that's all I can say about that.

Violet: That was part one of a series of discussions with the principal architects of the opposition. Join us next Tuesday when the panellists discuss the future of the MDC and civil society.

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