Back to Index

Transcript of interview with with NCA Chairperson Dr Lovemore Madhuku on SW Radio Africa's Hot Seat
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
May 30, 2006

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/madukuhotseat010606.htm

Violet:The controversy over Dr Lovemore Madhuku's attempts to serve a third term as the head of the National Constitutional Assembly came to a head at their Annual General meeting on Saturday. In an atmosphere that was described as tense and despite criticism and pressure from some NCA stakeholders for the Chairman to step down Dr Madhuku was re-elected for a third term after the constitution was amended to allow the civic leader to stand again. We are joined by Dr Madhuku on the programme 'Hot Seat'. Welcome Dr Madhuku.

Dr Madhuku: Yes, welcome, how are you?

Violet:Fine thank-you. Now, Dr Madhuku I'm going to go straight into this discussion. First of all, despite several NCA members raising serious objections about the constitutional amendments you still went ahead. Can you give us your reasons for this?

Dr Madhuku: It's not actually correct that there were serious objections from NCA members. I mean, there were a few members who did not agree and that was expected but the overwhelming majority of NCA membership who had themselves initiated the changes to the constitution were in support of it. I would not have gone ahead if there had been, to use your words, 'serious objections'.

Violet:OK, lets say even if there were no serious objection on your part, in your view, is there really any point in having a constitution if it is changed the moment it becomes restrictive or inconvenient?

Dr Madhuku: Well, this is not what happened. I mean, the purpose of a constitution obviously is to guide the way an organisation or a country is run and so I would agree with you that constitutions must not be changed where they are inconvenient. But, this constitution was not changed because of its being inconvenient. It was changed to respond to the very pressing needs of the NCA and of the country.

Violet:Many would agree that you had good reason to change the constitution but are these not the same reasons many despotic rulers in African and around the world have given to excuse their extended term of office? What makes your situation different?

Dr Madhuku: There is a world of difference, a very big world of difference. We are not in power and we are not enjoying the privileges of power. A person who is leading the NCA at this moment in Zimbabwe is in a painful struggle to get a new constitution and it is wrong to talk about us being in power or even being leaders. Actually, we are part of a process of trying to get a better situation for Zimbabweans so in that situation it is extremely misleading to talk of power. There's a world of difference there. When one starts from the premise that a person who is leading a movement which is struggling for democracy is in power, they will obviously go all the way to get wrong when we make technical changes to our constitution to facilitate continuation of the momentum that we have build over the years.

Violet:But Dr Madhuku, people see it as an issue of power. First of all was there no clear constitutional provision that said - people must only serve two terms in the NCA?

Dr Madhuku: Look, I think that we are starting from different premises. I have already indicated that the kind of people who see it as power I think they are people who are fundamentally misconceived. I mean, the ordinary members of the NCA, the majority of the struggling people in Zimbabwe, would not see my re-election as me remaining in power, but it if somebody is speaking from an angle of either not understanding what the struggle in Zimbabwe is all about and what we are doing, they will see it as power.

Violet:You have already spent how many years at the helm of the NCA? That's about four years isn't it?

Dr Madhuku: I have been Chairperson for four years.

Violet:And now you've been given a five-year extension?

Dr Madhuku: Now I'm going to be Chairperson for five years and that will be the limit of my term. I will have served as Chairperson for nine years. It's not a long period.

Violet:No but, your constitution clearly says that you can only stand for two terms, is it not correct?

Dr Madhuku: We respect that constitution that is why we took steps to follow the democratic process of amending it. We didn't disregard the constitution, which is what this government does. We realised that the provision relating to the two years in office were not taking into account what is required to build a formidable force to resist dictatorship in Zimbabwe and that is what we adjusted, and we still respect the principle that people must be in office for a limited period and I will be in office for a limited period and that is the principle we are fighting for. That principle has not been undermined. What we have adjusted is the length of the term. I think there is no principle that says it should be two, three, four, five years. The principle is that there should be a limited term of office for those who are in leadership. Madhuku is not going to be the Chairperson of the NCA forever.

Violet:What about the crafting of the constitutional amendments? You say you have adjusted the length. Were people actually consulted, you know, during the crafting of the constitutional amendments?

Dr Madhuku: I must emphasise this, that the amendments to change the NCA constitution did not come from me. They came from the overwhelming majority of NCA members, I did not say that it was unanimous. So there are people who would disagree with that process and say 'well, it was not like that'. People who have criticised these amendments are people who did not agree and there were people who didn't agree. But they were so insignificant in terms of numbers that the majority had to have its way in a democratic way.

Violet:But, we have some of your members, like your former Deputy Chairman, Douglas Mwonzora, who says that he was a member of the NCA Legal Committee and he alleges that stakeholders were not consulted. In fact, Mwonzora said that, and I quote "the amendments were actually written by Dr Madhuku. Normally, a Legal Committee is supposed to sit and craft the amendments that would come from the people but the Legal Committee did not sit and they were also not dealt with at the previous AGM". Is that correct?

Dr Madhuku: That is false, but the best way of showing that it is false is for you to talk to ordinary members of the NCA. Just talk to the ordinary members of the NCA and ask them that question. I mean, you do a survey you will get different answers. But it is not for me to say 'well, that is false because I say it is false'. It is false and you will prove the falsehoods by talking to ordinary members. I mean you will not prove this simply by talking to me and talking to somebody else. I mean, yes, he is merely one of the members of the NCA, but there were thousands there, of people, and there are thousands of people in the NCA membership. I mean, just talk to other people. I will be able to – um, you will not even come back to me, if you were to talk to at least 4 or 5 other people outside that ring that you have talked to.

Violet:But, Dr Madhuku, is it not up to the leaders themselves you know, to explain to the members, to the ordinary members, about the constitutional provisions clearly. Did people really understand what these amendments meant?

Dr Madhuku: They know better than yourself and others. What the NCA membership wanted was very clear. They wanted a continuation of a particular form of leadership for purposes of ensuring that we get a new constitution. That, they are very clear about. They will be clear about that again tomorrow, you can ask them again in four years; they will tell you that what they did on 27th May 2006 was to ensure that they sustain a particular leadership. What lawyers were going to do about it was for lawyers. So that is where, perhaps, those who were critical about it may not be understanding what happened. The leadership was asked by the membership to ensure that we maintain a particular form of leadership, and that required then technically to amend the constitution, but the amending of the constitution was not the first thing. What started was the demand by the ordinary membership of the NCA to maintain a particular leadership for purposes of maintaining our struggle.

Violet:So, come end of this third term and if the people say they want you to stand for a fourth term, would you amend the constitution again so that you could stand for another term?

Dr Madhuku: That is not going to arise. We will have a new constitution in the next few years.

Violet:What happens if we don't get a new constitution in the next few years? Are you still going to stand again?

Dr Madhuku: We are going to get a new constitution. The only reason why I was re-elected was to ensure that we get a new constitution. And, if we don't get a new constitution in the next five years there will be no reason to want to ask me to go ahead; I would have failed. If, in five years from now there is no new constitution

Violet:Now you said earlier that we should go and ask the NCA membership to find out their views about this controversial issue. Now, some of your members allege that the atmosphere at the just ended congress was very intimidating and some were even physically assaulted, you know, the people that opposed your nomination.

Dr Madhuku: Again, that is wrong approach. It is not for me to comment on some of these things. What is clear is that at the end of the deliberations, which were of course hot, there was a secret ballot out of 805 people who were present, an overwhelming 744 people cast their vote in favour of the amendment. You would not expect the debate to simply to proceed without some incident. There was only one incident. It is very false that there was any intimidating environment. That is false.

Violet:Again, your former Deputy Chairman, Douglas Mwonzora, alleges that there was one man who came from Bulawayo, Walter Nyoni, who was thrown out of the meeting unceremoniously, and also another opposition leader, Mr Zembe, was also assaulted at this meeting after they spoke out; they opposed your nomination. So, clearly, you have some people who are now saying that 'is this what is expected of a pro-democracy group that is campaigning for lawful and peaceful constitutional reform. How would you answer people; these people?

Dr Madhuku: My problem with that question which I have raised before is that you seem to have only one source of information and that is, I think, unfair. If you were to be fair to the debate, just go beyond that source and get other sources. I would bet that you would not get more beyond that ring of one or two people saying that. I mean, why should all your information be coming from one person. So we deny those things, and still insist that this was the overwhelming desire of Zimbabweans struggling for a new constitution.

Violet:Actually, these criticisms have not only come from one person, and I'm sure if you have been reading the newspapers you would find that a lot of former NCA leaders have come out against and criticised the amendments that have now allowed you to stand for a third term. You have people like Dr John Makumbe who has spoken out, saying that it's unconstitutional; you have opposition leaders like Professor Welshman Ncube who is reported to have also spoken out against this. And, you know, the media; the ZimOnline newspaper, the Standard, nearly all newspapers in Zimbabwe have criticised this. Now, my question to you is: does it not concern you that political analysts and founding members of the NCA have piled up pressure on you to step down and allow a new person to lead the campaign for a new and democratic constitution for the country and that they say that your controversial re-election has plunged the NCA into a credibility crisis.

Dr Madhuku: There is no credibility crisis, in fact, the NCA will be stronger as we go and the kind of criticisms that you are referring to, those are acceptable criticisms. But, I have one point to make; these people did not even attend the NCA AGM, they are not in the mainstream NCA programme, they have not been seen campaigning for a new constitution in the past few years; they are arm-chair critics, and my approach to the struggle in this country is that I'm going to listen to the struggling majority. And, those are the people who matter; those are the people who have a greater sense of what is happening. Ivory tower criticism will not affect the course of events in this country, and they will not affect the way in which we do things. But, we would be very worried if ordinary people in Zimbabwe were to raise a criticism against. Why is it that when you go to an NCA meeting, the overwhelming majority of ordinary Zimbabweans make it clear that they would want certain things to happen while a minority composed of civil society activists would be complaining?

Violet:Dr Madhuku, you know many people at home and abroad, you know; in Zimbabwe and in the international community, know you as a fearless and tireless human rights activist. Personally, do you not think this is suicidal on your part; to extend your term of office by amending the constitution? Does this not mar your track record of being a serious advocate for democracy?

Dr Madhuku: I don't know what is meant by suicide if you use it in that context actually. You mean that people will say I am no longer a fighter for democracy because I am still leader of the NCA at a time some people prefer that I should have left office when in fact the majority of the membership of the NCA and the majority of the ordinary people feel. Fearless fighter in the eyes of whom? As long as I am a fearless fighter in the eyes of the overwhelming majority of the people, it will not matter. It might be suicide in the eyes of those who are somewhat reading news in the internet who are not in the struggle here; who are watching events in Zimbabwe as if they are watching a football match, it won't be suicide. In fact, as long as the people here feel that I am doing a service to liberate them from the kind of dictatorship that we have experienced, we will remain. So, it will be a question of perception.

Violet:Final question on this particular issue, because it is a hot issue. We all know that Mugabe has changed the constitution a record nineteen times since independence, and so, would you really blame people who would think that you are doing this for personal power and ambition and that if you change the constitution, you know it will make you no different from Robert Mugabe and lose credibility?

Dr Madhuku: I have said it before; there is a world of difference. The people who asked me to remain leader of the NCA are the same people that have been oppressed by Mugabe. They know Mugabe better than you and me. That there is a difference between those who are in national office and those who are in a movement that is fighting for a cause. So we are not changing the constitution in the way Mugabe does it. Mugabe changes the constitution not in a people-driven way. The NCA constitution was changed by the people in the NCA. When we criticise Mugabe we would want Zimbabweans generally to have an input in a new constitution and this is what is not happening. But in the NCA experience, overwhelming numbers, ordinary people in the streets everywhere would support and they supported what we did. So that's the difference. It must be people-driven. The NCA is not fighting for a constitution that will not be changed. It is fighting for a constitution that will be made by the people and changed by the people

Violet:Right, and it's also reported that the proposed amendments to the NCA constitution also seek to introduce an executive national Chairperson who would consolidate and monopolise all organisational power and authority.

Dr Madhuku: (laughs) sorry, sorry for that thing, I don't understand that thing! Again and again it is this little understanding that the NCA leader is in power. Those concepts must be reserved for people who are running governments, not for a person who is putting together efforts of ordinary Zimbabweans to reclaim their lost freedom here. And that whatever we do, and what we did in the amendments was to make the NCA more effective in its execution of the programme. There are so many things that were not properly put in place before, so we have done that. And, there's no concentration of power, there is no power to concentrate in the NCA.

Violet:You know, the reason I was asking this you know was, much as you might want to downplay the power of the NCA, you know, some people had said, and these are reports that have been published in the newspapers was there was this fear that you would possess authoritarian powers as head of the NCA Secretariat or head of the management committee.

Dr Madhuku: The NCA had a constitutional provision that says that the Vice Chairperson was the head of the Finance and Management Committee. But then we realised that we want to, in between meetings of task forces, to have a committee that can make decisions on behalf of the task force. Our task force is big, it's thirty-three members. We wanted a smaller committee of ten people. There was no framework for that before. So, like all organisations, they always have a committee within the national committee that meets as a management committee. This is what we are providing. And if you have a committee that meets in-between meetings, everywhere in the world, it is chaired by the Chairperson. This is simply a new innovation. And, that committee does not head the Secretariat; the Secretariat is headed by an appointed employee who reports, of course, to the task force, and reporting to the task-force means reporting to the head of the organisation. I mean, you can't be Chairperson of an organisation if the head of the Secretariat is not reporting to you, I mean, that is totally not possible. So, what the NCA had wanted was we wanted to minimise our costs. So, from time to time this Management Committee; which will be composed of the Chair, the Vice-Chair and other members, will be able to meet at short notice to deliberate on issues that and actually, the effect will be to neutralise the powers of the Chairperson. That is why I laughed!

Violet:This is a new term for you. What does the future actually hold for you now in the NCA, what are your plans for this new term?

Dr Madhuku: Yes thanks very much for that very useful question. My plans are very clear in the coming term of office. The first thing is to defend, and I must emphasise the word deepen and I also use the word broaden our penetration of the ordinary members of Zimbabwe, the ordinary person in Zimbabwe; to get them to join the crusade for a new constitution. Deepen our penetration of rural areas, deepen our penetration of local communities, get more and more Zimbabweans to accept the cause that we are fighting for. Then, the second thing is that once this broadening has been made sufficiently, it is to use our broad base to put pressure on the Mugabe regime to yield to the cause of a new constitution. So, it's a two-pronged thing; outreach programme to get more and more Zimbabweans who are committed to the cause; use a committed Zimbabwean population to fight and push the Mugabe regime to accept a new constitution. That's why I'm very confident that with that two-pronged process we will get a new constitution before this term of office comes to an end

Violet:Is your conscience very clear on what has happened lately in the NCA?

Dr Madhuku: Thank you very much for asking me that question. I must say and say again, my conscience is very clear. Very, very clear. I am convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that I am doing the right thing for the people of Zimbabwe. I am doing the right things for the people that have asked me to continue to lead the NCA. I have suffered a lot for the NCA. I have lost a lot because of my leadership of the NCA and this is why I find it quite astonishing that people think that I am clinging to power when I believe that I am in a struggle; that struggle remains un-finished and I am committed to finishing to the end.

Violet:Thank you very much.

Madhuku: Thanks

Please credit www.kubatana.net if you make use of material from this website. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License unless stated otherwise.

TOP