Back to Index

Transcript of interview with opposition leader Arthur Mutambara on SW Radio Africa's hot seat
Violet Gonda, SW Radio Africa
May 16, 2006

http://www.swradioafrica.com/pages/mutambara%20on%20hotseat.htm

Violet: We welcome Professor Arthur Mutambara on the programme 'Hotseat'. Professor Mutambara was recently appointed President of the split group that was called 'the pro-senate faction' as a result of the divisions that split the MDC in October last year. Welcome Professor Mutambara.

Arthur: Thank-you very much. Correction, I wasn't appointed, I was elected at a Congress in Bulawayo on the 26th of February. So we need to make sure that listeners are very clear that I'm a product of a democratic process in the form of a Congress. But, thank you very much for having me here.

Violet: Right. But first, you know, people have said 'who is this new kid on the block'? We know you were a student leader back in the 1980's, we know you are a respected scientist; engineer. Apart from that we know very little about the man Arthur Mutambara; who is Arthur Mutambara?

Arthur: There's nothing very unique about me Violet. I am just one of the many Zimbabweans who has stepped up to the plate to be part of the solution in Zimbabwe. We are representing a generational intervention in Zimbabwe. We are saying that it is the duty and obligation of every Zimbabwean to be part of the process of constructing economic and political solutions in our country. History will never absolve our generation if we don't become part of the solution to our national crisis. Mutambara is just one of many Zimbabweans and there's nothing that qualifies me more than other Zimbabweans. As to why I'm here, I think that's a question you have to ask the people who elected me at the Congress in Bulawayo. But, there's nothing unique about Mutambara. Mutambara is just another soldier who has stepped up to the plate to be part of the democratic process in Zimbabwe.

Violet: Now many have said where were you during the period you were out of the country. You left Zimbabwe in the late 80's and you came back into active politics just this year in 2006. Were you active in Diaspora politics in the States for example?

Arthur: Specifically I left in 1991 to go to school at Oxford and then worked in the US; worked in South Africa. The bottom line is, I thought it was important for me to get exposure and to get experience; to get an education and become a better Zimbabwean in terms of my contribution. My hope and trust is that my exposure and experience in the UK, my exposure and experience in the US, my exposure and experience in South Africa will make me a better contributor in the public discourse in Zimbabwe. So here is a Zimbabwean who is saying I want to be part of the nation of Zimbabwe, I want to part of those in Zimbabwe who has stepped up to the plate to be part of the democratic processes. So I'm here.

The question is to judge me by my contributions, to judge me by what I am proposing for the country, to judge us as a party by our vision, our mission and our strategy. We are here today because Zimbabwe is in a national crisis. 85% unemployment, 90% of our people living below the poverty datum line, 913 % inflation, serious diversion, unemployment. We are saying that Zimbabwe needs a vision - where do we want Zimbabwe to be in 30 years time? Our country needs a vision. This party, MDC, that I represent, has a vision for Zimbabwe. A vision of opportunities, business opportunities, employment opportunities, entrepreneurship, a vision of healthcare and education of high quality and accessible and affordable healthcare. A vision of Zimbabwe being the leading democracy in Southern Africa, ahead of South Africa, Zimbabwe with a per capita and GDP that's in the top 5 in Africa. A Zimbabwe that is globally competitive. Our party, the MDC that I represent, has a vision for Zimbabwe. Not only does it have a vision, it has a strategy, the game plan to take Zimbabwe from the national crisis that we are in to the promised land. The promised land of opportunities. The strategy hinges on two things, one area is governance and the second is the economy. So we have ideas and principles around governance - things we are going to do around governance, and issues and programmes around the economy. And also let me emphasise that our enemy in Zimbabwe is ZANU PF and Robert Mugabe. We are here to fight and defeat the regime of Robert Mugabe. Mugabe is our target; ZANU PF is our target. We are stepping up as a new generation to make a difference in our country.

Violet: But still, Professor Mutambara I want to come back to my earlier question, which is why were you silent all this time the time you left in 1991 to 2006. We'll come back to your proposal and I know it may seem a bit trivial to you but you have been criticised for coming from nowhere and straight up to the top position and your opponents want to know what you were doing during this period whilst others were organising.

Arthur: I was not silent, I was active, but at a lower level. I was active in corporate Zimbabwe as a consultant. I was active in civil society at a lower level. I was active in public discourse in the US and in South Africa. I was active in the global struggles of poor people. So, I was active in a different area. But, in any case, what has that got to do with the rising price of rice in China? What has that got to do with anything. Right now Zimbabwe is burning. Does Mutambara, - does the MDC that I represent - have a vision? Do they have a strategy from the crisis to the promised land. We should concentrate on the substance of the change that we want to bring about in our country. Sometimes we get caught up in the form of change. We want change, Mugabe must go, ZANU PF must go - but what are you going to do when you get into power? What's your capacity as a party? What's your vision for the country? What's your strategy? What is it that makes you relevant to Zimbabwe, also, what are your principles and values? Do you believe in non violence, are you tolerant, do you believe in democracy, do you believe in collective decision making processes. Are you a democrat? Not only do you believe in these things, but do you walk the talk? Are you a principled opposition party, are you a principled opposition leader. We are saying we are sick and tired of being sick and tired in Africa of change that has no content. We have seen it in Zambia when Chiluba took over after Kaunda and Chiluba turned out to be worse than Kaunda. We don't want that travesty in Zimbabwe. We have seen it in Malawi where Maluzi took over after Banda and was not necessarily any better than Banda. In Zimbabwe we are fighting for change that has both form and substance.

Violet: You said earlier on when I introduced you that you were not appointed; but you were actually elected at a congress?

Arthur: Yes, in Bulawayo on the 1st of February, yes.

Violet: Now did you come voluntarily or were you invited? Because there are people who say the leaders in the pro-senate faction namely Professor Welshman Ncube, Gibson Sibanda, actually went shopping around for a leader.

Arthur: I think that's a dumb question to be very polite. The people of Zimbabwe reserve the right to engage and elect any Zimbabwean that they want to be part of the democratic process. I was nominated, I was elected at a Congress in Bulawayo. If you want to find out why they thought Mutambara could be a useful soldier for democracy and social justice in Zimbabwe, you ask that electorate. You ask those five thousand people who were in Bulawayo at the Congress why they thought it wise and useful to have Mutambara as one of them. I'm just another Zimbabwean who's saying I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired of being an analyst, and an observer, a spectator of my country. I want to be a player in the definition of the destiny of my country. What I'm saying today, it's not enough to leave the destination of Zimbabwe to Chinotimba, Mai Mujuru na Tsvangirai. Chinotimba, Mai Mujuru and Tsvangirai need help. They have a role to play but other Zimbabweans must step up to the plate and assist in the construction of political and economic solutions in our country, and I am one of those Zimbabweans who is stepping up to help others who are in the trenches. The people who are in the trenches felt it necessary to involve me in their processes and I am here to serve Zimbabwe. . I am simply a vehicle, a servant, I am not a messiah; I am a servant of the people of Zimbabwe and I am here because we as Zimbabweans we will never be respected, wherever we are, in England, in South Africa and in America, unless and until we are successful as a society. It doesn't matter how much money you make; it doesn't matter how much education you have. As long as Zimbabwe, as a country has not succeeded you will never be respected. As long as Africans in Africa, are unsuccessful, Africans globally will never be respected. I am here to be part of the construction of solutions. Political ones and economic ones in SADC and in Africa in general, so that we as Africans globally are respected and are equal players under globalisation.

Violet: What about this ethnic and elitist tag that is surrounding your group? How are you going to go around this?

Arthur: I think this is where people were very cheap after the split on October 12th. People thought they could destroy some of the people I'm working with by taking them with the name of ethnic Ndebele or they're ZANU PF or they're CIO's. Let's get over that crap. As Zimbabweans we must respect each other. When we disagree don't call each other names. Don't call ' oh this group has disagreed with me, oh they are doing it because they are Ndebeles'. Or 'this group has disagreed with me, oh, they are CIO and they are ZANU PF'. Let's stick to principles and values. I am here working with Zimbabweans; I am here not working with a faction, we are building a new political party by the way - I am not member of a faction, I am a member of a political party, which political party is re-focusing its agenda and values. Number one, we are saying to the people of Zimbabwe 'we are embracing the liberation war legacy'. We are saying to the people of Zimbabwe 'we are embracing the land revolution agenda'. Not Mugabe's chaotic land reform programme but land revolution that says the liberation war was fought on the basis of a number of factors. One of those factors was land. We are pushing for productivity, self sufficiency, food security and more importantly the colatoral value of land - security of tenure on that land. We are saying we can't go back to the pre 2000 February status quo. Land in Zimbabwe, the land revolution in Zimbabwe must be driven by Zimbabwean interests - black and white Zimbabweans. Not one group of people. The land belongs to all Zimbabweans, but on that land we want to make sure there is productivity. On that land we want to make sure there is secondary agriculture, where we are saying to the world 'don't sell cotton, sell cloth and suits. Don't sell timber, sell furniture. Beneficiation in agriculture. Value addition in agriculture beyond productivity in agriculture. We have a vision for this country, we have a strategy to take this country from where we are; the national crisis, to the promised land of opportunities, living wages and high quality education and healthcare which is affordable and accessible.

Violet: Just going back on the issue of the tag that surrounds your party. Let's not simplify this problem. It is a huge problem. Many people we speak to believe that the Tsvangirai camp has more supporters than your camp, and some of the reasons that we have heard from people has to do with this belief that the Mutambara camp has people that may have something to do with ZANU PF. Now, how can you reassure these people, because there are those who say that they want to be sure that this is not just another CIO plot to further destabilise the opposition.

Arthur: I will speak to those two things. One the ZANU PF tag and the issue of numbers. On the ZANU PF my credibility as a soldier against Mugabe and against ZANU PF is unquestionable. I fought ZANU PF '88, '89, when some of the people who are actively opposing Mugabe now were ZANU PF members and ZANU PF Commissars. So my credibility and history of confrontation with Mugabe in Zimbabwe is unquestionable, that, you can put aside. Secondly, the people I'm working with some of them were tortured, some of them went to prison, some were detained. These people were victims of the regime of Robert Mugabe. For six years they worked together with others fighting Mugabe. So how can you turn around after six years and condemn your own colleagues, your own comrades with whom you built a party over six years and say they are ZANU PF, they are CIO. I think, like I said before, lets be woman enough, lets be man enough to agree that sometimes we can disagree on values and principles, we can disagree on strategies, we can disagree on directions; without necessarily mud slinging. The problem of Zimbabwe, we have this culture of ZANU PF. For twenty six years we have not known any other leader in Zimbabwe, for twenty six years we have not known any other political party , so ZANU PF has become a way of life. It has become a culture. It has become a culture of intolerance. A culture that says that dissent is not good. The culture that says if you disagree with me you are an enemy. We need to accommodate dissent, we need to accommodate disagreement and say ' hey, we are all Zimbabweans.

Don't question my patriotism because I disagree with you . don't question my opposition to Mugabe because I disagree with you. Let's be grown ups politically and accommodate disagreements and cherish diversity of opinion. And so we have no problem, I am more opposed to Robert Mugabe than our opponents! My history is very clear. Ask Mugabe, ask ZANU who is more opposed to them historically and currently. So you can not with any equivocation, you know, any other grid, you cannot question, you can not question our commitment. Let's talk about the numbers. This is another myth OK? For a start, we are in a marathon. The Zimbabwean problem requires long term thinking, long term strategic planning. Now Morgan does not have more numbers than us, lets take the Congress? How can you have 15 000 people at a Congress? The ANC which is the biggest opposition party in Southern Africa has a congress, they have their congress or conference with 5 000 people. So does it mean that the ANC in South Africa has less support than Tsvangirai?

Violet: So are you saying there were not 15 000 people at the Tsvangirai Congress?

Arthur: A congress is for delegates, its not a political rally. So that was a political rally not a congress. A congress has numbers that are finite, 5000 or 4000 people, very specific numbers. So we are not interested in cheap propaganda. So that was not a congress it was a rally meant to trump up numbers around propaganda. Secondly, the rallies. People are being bussed into those rallies. Secondly, numbers are being inflated. But, we don't care about cheap propaganda. We are here to pursue substance, we are here to pursue the vision for Zimbabwe. We are here to pursue strategy to get Mugabe out of power and take over the country and run the country for the benefit of all Zimbabweans. We are here not to fight Morgan Tsvangirai. Morgan Tsvangirai is our brother, we are here to work with him to bring about change in Zimbabwe. We do not take Morgan Tsvangirai as an enemy, he is a brother; he is a soldier. But what we are saying is we must have principles and values in the fight against Mugabe.

Our submission is: you won't succeed against Mugabe if you use cheap propaganda to try and fight the struggle against the dictator. You wont win in the struggle against the dictator if you use the same methods; violence, lack of democracy, corruption to fight against a corrupt regime. Let's be very clear that there are basic principles and values that are essential in any struggle to liberate Zimbabwe, essential to liberate Zimbabwe and create a new society. Democratic resistance for example. We support mass action, we support democratic resistance. We support jambanja. We know more about jambanja than many of these people who go around talking about democratic resistance. We are the foundation of jambanja. There is a caveat, we do not believe in making cheap promises, we do not believe in phrases like 'final push', we don not believe in phrases like 'short and sharp action'. How can you set yourself up for failure? What happens if it doesn't happen? The journalists will be asking you 'Mr President, how short, Mr President, the winter is almost over, where is the winter of discontent?' If you are capable of carrying out short and sharp action you don't talk about it, you just do it. When you talk about it, number one you are letting your enemy to prepare for you and crush you. Secondly, you are setting up people for failure and consequently as a result of that behaviour you are going to demoralise people and take them five years behind. So, we are going to support democratic resistance, we are going to support mass action when its called by others or we are going to call it ourselves. But, the difference is, democratic resistance is just one of many strategies we are going to use to bring about change in Zimbabwe. So we take democratic resistance as a weapon, as a tool. Secondly, we need a new people driven democratic constitution. So we are going to work with the NCA, we are going to work with civil society to drive and work towards a new people driven democratic constitution.

Violet: But do you have support from civic society, from the students? And also still on the issue of support, you did talk about numbers and you said that numbers are not important because you seem to imply that some of the people who went to these rallies, the Tsvangirai rallies, some were bussed in. Now, what about the defections? Several opposition leaders from your camp have actually defected to Tsvangirai.

Arthur: Again, let's be specific. There are three people who have defected from our side. Chebundo, Sipepa Nkomo and Chimanikire.

Violet: And how many people have defected from the Tsvangirai side?

Arthur: That's fine. We'll talk about that. Remember we are building a new political party, and its a new political party based on a re-commitment to the original values of the foundation of the MDC and also committed to a vision, strategy and mission for Zimbabwe. Now, those three people, yes symbolically it's damaging, propaganda wise it's damaging. Why are people leaving our party. But remember we have said very clearly no longer comfortable with what our platform is. Those who are going for cheap victories, those who are not prepared for a long fight to democratise Zimbabwe and reach Zimbabwe's promised land in 20, 30 years, must leave the party now. So we are encouraging people to defect. Those who do not want to fight, those who are swayed by the propaganda about numbers can leave now. But, for your information, Chimanikire left and his body guard stayed with us, his PA stayed with us. So in terms of substance in the programme, there is no impact to us in terms of the defection of Chimanikire. In terms of impact and substance, Chebundo and Sipepa Nkomo are not consequential in our dimension of the fight. So yes, symbolically people could say are we are on the rocks, but remember, we are in a marathon. Who cares what happens in the first five seconds of a marathon? Who cares what happens in the first 500 metres of a marathon. And in any case, you judge us, you compare Mutambara and Tsvangirai, I've been in this game of five months, Tsvangirai has been in this game for seven months. What kind of comparison is that? What happens after six months. What happens after two years? What happens after five years. So the comparison between Mutambara and Tsvangirai is misplaced, and in any case Mutambara and Tsvangirai are not competing. Mutambara and Tsvangirai are fighting against Mugabe. Mutambara and Tsvangirai have a common agenda to democratise Zimbabwe. We have more that brings us together than divides us but the bottom line is we don't want people in the struggle who use violence as a tool of oppositional politics organisation. We don't want people who are intolerant to dissent. We don't want people who defy and violate their own party constitution. So as a party our focus is ZANU and Robert Mugabe, our focus is fighting to defeat Mugabe and ZANU. And civil society, yes, there are some people in civil society who are destroying civil society as we speak, they have become partisan and we are encouraging them to say as labour, as NCA, as Zimrights, as ZINASU, stick to your core business. Your core business is the constitution, your core business are the workers. So do not be partisan in factional party politics and be able to drive the agenda of the new constitution.

We are going to work with civil society to fight for a new constitution in Zimbabwe. We are going to work with civil society to repeal the repressive legislation - AIPPA and POSA - so we can level the political playing field so we can contest and defeat Mugabe in elections. Yes, we know, the elections were rigged in the past, they were rigged in 2000, they were rigged in 2002, they were rigged in 2005. The challenge that we are presenting today is to say that its not enough for the opposition to say that the elections were rigged. What do you do about it? So, our task going forward is to understand how elections are rigged in Zimbabwe, and put mechanisms in place to make it harder for the ZANU regime to rig elections. That's our first strategy, the second part says in the event that they go ahead and rig those elections, you must have a credible and implementable plan B which will be implemented without equivocation nor ambiguity to make sure ZANU and Mugabe will not get away with a fraudulent election again. So we do not have any illusion about election in the past. They were rigged the three times. The challenge is the leadership in the past was not very robust and clear in countering rigging and secondly they never had an executable implementable plan B which we are working on and that's the strategy. But the first thing is we need a new people driven democratic constitution. And the third one which is important and people don't actually talk about. It's not enough to have a new constitution. You need democratic opposition parties that believe in non-violence, in tolerance to be developed in Zimbabwe. They don't exist that is the charge we are making. We do not have robust democratic opposition parties in Zimbabwe. We are building one right now.

Violet: That was Arthur Mutambara. President of the breakaway faction of the MDC speaking to us when he visited London last week. Be sure to listen to the final part of this discussion next Tuesday when we ask Mutambara if a government of national unity with ZANU PF is part of the road-map that his MDC faction is selling. Among other issues we ask how does he hope to bring about change in a system where the ruling party controls the democratic process at every stage. The MDC split has caused great difficulty for voters and for all Zimbabweans who placed their hopes in this opposition party. As part of these discussions on the way forward we hope to soon bring you an interview with MDC President Morgan Tsvangirai.

Please credit www.kubatana.net if you make use of material from this website. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License unless stated otherwise.

TOP