Back to Index

Interview with the Zimbabwean Abassador: Simon Khaya Moyo
Carte Blanche (MNet)
April 23, 2006

http://www.carteblanche.co.za/Display/Display.asp?Id=3062

Moky Makura (Carte Blanche presenter): '26 years of democracy in Zimbabwe... What is there to celebrate?'

Simon Khayo Moyo (Zimbabwean Ambassador): 'Well there is much to celebrate. To start with, there is freedom itself. And it must be viewed in context. Because, as you know, Zimbabwe became independent in 1980 after many years of conflict… a liberation war. Naturally, it is known that we lost over 50 000 people; over 100 000 were maimed; millions were displaced. Therefore, we feel that that was a great achievement to get independence. But we are celebrating our achievements in the sense that we have moved away from our colonial past to a sovereign state. In that process our people have had extensive education. We have built so many schools. We have built so many clinics. A lot of jobs were created and opportunities of course arose. And what is most important is the land issue. We have now regained the land through our land reform program.'

Moky: 'At what cost to your economy?'

Simon: 'Well of course the economy must be viewed in the context of the land. Without land, what economy are you having? What was the struggle about? The struggle was about land and about independence. And for those of you who know what happened at Lancaster House during the talks with the British government, the talks almost broke down because of the land issue. But the talks were rescued because the British government then came up with a package that they would establish a fund. The fund would be used to purchase those farms from the white compatriots… and those that had more than one farm. Some had fifteen to twenty farms. And they were the landlords. So it is important - for you to develop an economy, you must own the resources of your country. And land is the key. And we believe that we are on the right footing. We have said, and I have said several times, again our struggle was not about colour. And our policy about land, which I speak about at the moment, is one farmer one farm, black or white. And it must be viewed in the context that we still have many of our white compatriots doing wonderful work in the country as [far as] farming is concerned.'

Moky: 'Can we go back to some things that Mugabe said in his speech?'

Simon: 'Sure.'

Moky: 'He said, for example, that he is looking at the economy growing between one and two percent. Is that realistic?'

Simon: 'I think that is. Indeed, as you know, they have just announced an economic blueprint called the National Economy Development Priority program, which falls under what we call the Zimbabwe National Security Council chaired by the president himself. And with a various number of committees and a number of targets [having] been set.'

Moky: 'A large number of economists have said that it is literally impossible for Zimbabwe…'

Simon: 'Well, it all depends what one understands by the new blueprint. Some of them have not even seen it. But what we are saying is that there are targets that have been set. The emphasis is going to be security. The emphasis is going to be on agricultural production, exports, foreign currency generation, and the promotion of tourism, because we have a very great tourist country. And of course the mining sector, which is key.'

Moky: 'You have just mentioned tourism there. I mean Zimbabweans themselves are leaving the country in their droves. Are you expecting tourists to come into Zimbabwe now?'

Simon: 'I don't know where that notion came from… in their droves. Who has been going all over the world…? Zimbabwe is a country where people still come in, in great numbers as well, and this is not mentioned either.'

Moky: 'Well it is fair to say that at least a thousand Zimbabweans have been crossing the border into South Africa on a monthly basis. About 600 of them are deported every single month. So there is a huge influx of Zimbabweans into South Africa.'

Simon: 'Of course, that is not denied. But the point is that if you go to the repatriation centre here called Lindela, and see how many Mozambicans are there, see how many Malawians are there, those are not mentioned. See how many Nigerians are there - they are not mentioned. It is only Zimbabweans. I don't understand why?'

Moky: 'There is a Methodist church in town. Apparently there are hundreds of Zimbabweans sleeping on the floor because they need to leave Zimbabwe. They would rather come to South Africa and sleep on the floor of a church than stay in Zimbabwe. What do you think about that?'

Simon: 'Are there only Zimbabweans sleeping on the floor of this church?'

Moky: 'Yes.'

Simon: 'Are you sure? You go and see how many foreigners are in this country from other countries. I don't see why Zimbabwe is singled out.'

Moky: 'So you don't think it is a problem that so many Zimbabweans are coming here?'

Simon: 'Well, we have never had a problem and we have always been coming here. Even my father worked here for years in the early forties. There were thousands of migrants coming here to South Africa.'

Moky: 'So you think there is nothing much wrong in Zimbabwe?'

Simon: 'Well, the land reform program itself, the implementation was viewed differently by our first world colonisers, Britain. Instead of handling the matter as a bilateral matter in Zimbabwe, they internationalised it and imposed sanctions on the country after we had gone through four years of successive drought. And obviously the economy is supposed to be affected if such things happen. Investors were told not to come to Zimbabwe, and we don't see why Britain had to go all that way. And we are saying Britain let us handle a bilateral matter bilaterally. Lets not internationalise it. And as far as we are concerned, at the moment we had a very good rain season, the harvest was excellent and people are going to have enough food to eat. And a lot of money was diverted to purchase food. And I am happy to say that our white compatriots, led by the Commercial Farmers Union, by Doug Taylor-Freeme and Trevor Gifford, issued a statement last week appealing to all farmers in the country, black and white, to work together. We are proud of that statement because we have said the policy is 'one farmer one farm', whether black or white. So let us farm together and let us develop the country together.'

Moky: 'There are other issues in Zimbabwe; human rights, for example. There has been a lot of talk about a really poor human rights record. For example, I have met somebody who said they were poisoned, people who have said they were beaten up. You know there is a lot of stuff in the media about it. What do you say to it?'

Simon: 'Again, we go back to the land reform. Before land reform, President Mugabe was viewed as one of the greatest statesmen by Britain itself. Across the world Zimbabwe was viewed as a wonderful country - the paradise of Africa. Of course they did not accept land reform. Because it affected their kith and kin, therefore Zimbabwe must be viewed as a devil… Zimbabwe must me demonised; Zimbabwe must be vilified. Just because of the land issue.'

Moky: 'Are you saying that there are no human rights abuses in Zimbabwe?'

Simon: 'There is no country which can say that - even Britain. We are saying, to what scale are they? And what do you have to say about all the other countries in the entire world? … including the United States.'

Moky: 'We interviewed someone from the Crisis Coalition. They are an NGO in Harare and have an office here. They have given us examples of people who they have seen, met, spoken to who are being tortured, or who are...'

Simon: 'Of course those who are responsible for torture must be brought to book. There is no doubt about that. They must be reported. But all I am trying to say to you is that it is not Zimbabwe [which] can be pointed out alone to say there have been human rights abuses. I mean even America itself.'

Moky: 'Okay, I understand what you are saying. I am not saying that only Zimbabwe is wrong…'

Simon: 'We don't condone. We don't condone.'

Moky: 'But lets look at this on a micro level; we are not talking about the world, we are talking about Zimbabwe. So, with regard to Zimbabwe, do you believe that there are human rights abuses happening in the country right now?'

Simon: 'Well it is possible that they could be there, but they must be reported if they do exist. And those that are responsible must be brought in front of the law.'

Moky: 'What about the fact that Mugabe has said in his speech again that if the MDC do anything in the country he will bring the full force of the law down on them. People have taken that to be a threat to the opposition party.'

Simon: 'Well obviously, if you mention that you want a regime change, that you are going to overthrow the government - an elected government - you are obviously involving yourself in treasonous activities. And it cannot be left like this. No country will allow its government to be overthrown illegally just because of the opposition.'

Moky: 'Lets look at the economy of Zimbabwe. Right now there is talk of inflation rates of nearly a thousand percent. How do everyday Zimbabweans survive? '

Simon: 'How many countries have you looked at? Some in Latin America have figures of nearly three thousand percent inflation. It has happened. What I am saying is that it is not just Zimbabwe that has gone through such things. It is not normal; we are going through a revolution. It is land reform which have brought all these problems, sanctions on Zimbabwe. And we are saying we are going to turn the economy around, because we have now got things set straight. The land is now in the hands of the majority of the people and people are working on the land again.'

Moky: 'There is nearly seventy percent unemployment in Zimbabwe. Nobody has said anything about how you are going to…'

Simon: 'Nobody has said anything about self-employment in Zimbabwe. A lot of people are self-employed in Zimbabwe, doing very well in various small-scaled businesses; doing exceedingly well. And I think it is important to mention that sector as well. That is why there is… why we have got a Ministry for medium and small scaled industries and the thousands and thousands of people employed in that area.'

Moky: 'Can we get back to what have… are referred to as Draconian laws - laws that strengthen the ZANU PF party, or strengthen personally Robert Mugabe? Things like the media laws; things like the laws against NGOs; constitutional changes that reduced the senate. All of these things have been made to look as though ZANU PF is holding on to power.'

Simon: 'Well there are elections in Zimbabwe every five years. Every five years there are elections in Zimbabwe. And if ZANU PF wins the elections, I don't know why people complain. The opposition complains that the elections were not free and fair, but where they won seats the seats are okay. What does that mean? Observers have come to Zimbabwe from the AU, the Non-aligned Movement, a lot of Eastern countries, and they have said they are free and fair. Just because Britain says they are not free and fair therefore they must be seen to be not free and fair, that is not correct.'

Moky: 'You don't believe that these laws are making it difficult for opposition parties to exist in Zimbabwe?'

Simon: 'The opposition parties are existing n Zimbabwe. They are there. Full time. I don't see why they should be complaining. Other countries have banned opposition parties.'

Moky: 'Let us look at the image of Zimbabwe in the media. You have been here for six years. Do you believe that the way South Africans report about Zimbabwe is fair and is accurate?'

Simon: 'Of course not!… because of the ownership of the media here. We know who owns the media? Even to the South African government it is not fair reporting.'

Moky: 'So what are they saying that is wrong? What are they saying that is wrong about Zimbabwe?'

Simon: 'No, nothing is right about Zimbabwe. That is the point. You cannot have a media that has decided that nothing will ever be right and say it is right, because it is not.'

Moky: 'So what is right about Zimbabwe?'

Simon: 'We are saying that people must come to Zimbabwe and see for themselves.'

Moky: 'So if I went, what would I see?'

Simon: 'Go and see. Go and see. You will see [the] opposite picture of what you are reading about Zimbabwe. Completely opposite picture.'

Moky: 'But what about the Zimbabweans themselves that are coming over here and who are telling us, we have got people who…'

Simon: 'Let us be frank. There are Zimbabweans that belong to the opposition. Naturally, they won't say anything good about it. That is fact. Tony Leon is opposition to the government here; he has never said anything good about his government. Nobody would say that because Tony Leon says that the government of South Africa is not doing good therefore things are bad. It is not correct.'

Moky: 'I am not talking about politicians. I am talking about ordinary Zimbabweans.'

Simon: 'Yes there are ordinary Zimbabweans, but there are ordinary people all over the world that say there is something wrong with their governments.'

Moky: 'Okay fine. What about the fact that people refer to Mugabe as Mad Bob? I mean the image of Zimbabwe overseas, internationally, is so bad. How do you feel when you read things like that about your country, the country you represent?'

Simon: 'I am not given, myself, to comment on tissues. I am more a man who comments on issues. And such types of people I just pray to God that he can forgive them. Because they are the ones who are mad.'

Moky: 'Does it make you angry?'

Simon: 'No, not at all. It makes me laugh.'

Moky: 'Okay… and the relationship between Zimbabwe and Britain? I mean Tony Blair was quoted yesterday as saying that what the regime is doing is a disgrace.'

Simon: 'Of course, we expect that from Tony Blair. I mean he is the one who said, in parliament itself in June last year, that he is working with the opposition for a regime change. You know that he said that in parliament - a very irresponsible statement from a prime minister. He is working with the opposition for a regime change. So what do you expect from such statements? … we were supported by the Conservative government in actual fact. When the Labour Party came to power in 1997, they were the ones who said that they didn't recognise the agreement which we had gone into with the Conservative government. And therefore they were not prepared to honour their obligation on the land issue. Otherwise we could destroy the whole thing. So obviously we expect such a statement from Tony Blair unfortunately. But what can we do if that is his thinking? If he wants a regime change then let him have it.'

Moky: 'We keep on going back to the land redistribution…'

Simon: 'Of course, that is the source of the problem.'

Moky: 'That is the source of the problem and it had to be done. But do you believe that the way it was done was the best for Zimbabwe?'

Simon: 'I don't see how any other way was possible when the government responsible says that we are not honouring any agreement. What do you do when a colonial power says we are not honouring any agreement. Claire Short herself issued a statement soon… when they came into power, that she was Irish and they were never a coloniser and therefore they are not going to honour any agreement with Zimbabwe. That is what she said. What do you do? People cannot fold their arms. We had actually gone over the issue of land in 1990 after the ten years of the removal of trade deplauses in the Constitution. Emeka Anyaoku, who was then Secretary General of the Commonwealth, had to come to Zimbabwe and said, 'Please don't move on the land issue now', because it was going to affect the independence of Namibia; it was going to delay the independence of South Africa. So we decided no, let us not do it now. Let us wait until Namibia is free and until South Africa is free. And that is what we did. Things would have been different if we had gone over the land issue in 1990.'

Moky: 'The cost or the price you paid for this land redistribution was quite a big price considering what has happened to Zimbabwe now. Was it worth it?'

Simon: 'We are not working for today. We are working for tomorrow. And we are saying, 'If tomorrow is going to be a better day, let today be a bad day'.'

Moky: 'Okay, tell me what is going to happen? What is a better day in Zimbabwe?'

Simon: 'A better day is that everybody is on the land now. And we are saying, 'Wth a good rainy season like we have had now, see the harvest' We have never had… never had such a harvest. That is what we want. People must eat. People must be free.'

Moky: 'So people are not eating now.'

Simon: 'But we are harvesting now, that is what I am saying. You don't plant now and eat immediately from the soil. You have to harvest. And people are harvesting now. That is what I am saying.'

Moky: 'I have to admire you, because you are so positive about Zimbabwe.'

Simon: 'I am very positive.'

Moky: 'I don't see it. I don't think any other people see it.'

Simon: 'I spent fifteen years in the bush for the liberation struggle. At one stage people said, 'Just forget about what you are doing'. And we said, 'No we can't. We have to fulfill this mission'. And we did. In South Africa nobody would have thought things would have happened the way they happened by 1994. So you don't give up in this world. You just have to do the right thing for your people and make sure, by the end of the day, you are the winner and the people are the winner by the end of the day.'

Moky: 'What [would] you like to say to Zimbabweans who are watching this programme?… Zimbabweans who are suffering or who have come over to South Africa because they can't actually survive in their own country.'

Simon: 'Zimbabweans must learn to unite; share ideas. Talk about their future together, black or white. They must not be running to other capitals calling for sanctions on their country. It doesn't help them. Get together, because once you are united there is peace. When there is peace there is development. When there is development there is prosperity. So it is important that nobody solves the problems of Zimbabwe except Zimbabweans themselves. Running around to Washington, to London and hoping that something will happen from there is just a waste of time. Get together as one people, black or white. Get together as one people and address the problems of your country.'

Moky: 'What is the relationship between Zimbabwe and South Africa?'

Simon: 'Excellent. Wonderful. Cordial relationship. We are neighbours, we share a common history, a common culture, a common destiny. We shared a common liberation struggle, we shared the trenches. Excellent relations.'

Moky: 'This thing of 'quiet' diplomacy that the South African government has been practicing, what does it actually mean?'

Simon: 'I have never heard of anything called 'loud' diplomacy myself, so I don't know. Those that want loud diplomacy, let them try it.'

Moky: 'But what is the South African government lobbying for? Because they have said that they are talking to the Zimbabwean government; they are doing things behind the scenes that we might not know about.'

Simon: 'Well of course they are talking to their brothers and sisters, their next-door neighbours. When you solve your problems as one family, you don't go out the gate and say, 'Look, we didn't eat tonight'. You solve your problems as one family, and that is what South Africans believe. We as Zimbabweans must get together and get our problems sorted out as a family.'

Moky: 'So right now you don't believe that there is anything that we need to worry about when it comes to Zimbabwe?'

Simon: 'No, of course there are challenges facing Zimbabwe. There is no doubt about it. There are economic challenges. That is why this new program, the blueprint I talked about -which has just been announced last week. We want to turn the economy around certainly.'

Moky: 'How long will it take to turn the economy around?'

Simon: 'Well there are targets set and they are saying within six to nine months the economy must be seen to be moving in the right direction…'

Moky: 'With all due respect, it took six years to get Zimbabwe into the state that it is in now, and you want to turn it around in nine months?'

Simon: 'After four years of successive droughts… what do you do when there is no rainfall? And you have got sanctions on top of that.'

Moky: 'So you are saying that if there had not been droughts…'

Simon: 'Of course. If the droughts had not been there, we would have had a good harvest for the last four years.'

Moky: 'But the fact that the commercial farmers have been booted off the land…'

Simon: 'They are there on the land. That is why I am talking about Doug Taylor-Freeme and Trevor Gifford issuing a statement from the Commercial Farmers Union. There are many… over 1 500… commercial white farmers in Zimbabwe. But people don't want to speak about them because it does not paint a good picture.'

Moky; 'But hasn't ZANU PF done a bit of a turnaround? In the papers yesterday it said that the government has invited farmers back and was actually giving farmers back their land.'

Simon: 'No, that statement was mischievous. Whoever issued that statement… nobody has ever said that a white person must leave; nobody has ever said so. We have never been against any particular colour. We had white compatriots in the struggle.'

Moky: 'Okay, people have reported that there are human rights abuses going on. What do you say to that?'

Simon: 'It depends who is reporting. Who is reporting, and where do they report? Where have they reported?'

Simon: 'Well, the point is that I know that there have been some people who have been arrested, who have violated human rights. If they reported to the police, fine. But if they are reporting to Washington, then Washington has no police in Harare.'

Moky: 'And what about Operation Restore Order that happened in Zimbabwe?'

Simon: 'Yes sure. We are not going to allow our people to live in slums. We don't have that at all in Zimbabwe. It is not our culture. Our people must have decent accommodation. We have full time brigades building houses across the country. And the Ministry of Rural Housing and Amenities was established last year for that particular purpose. People must have decent accommodation.'

Moky: 'People were taken out of their homes. What was…'

Simon: 'Those were not homes - those were shacks.'

Moky: 'But that is where people lived… those were their homes.'

Simon: 'But you can't have shacks built anywhere you like, even on…'

Moky: 'But what alternatives did you offer people?'

Simon: 'You see, people in Zimbabwe are different to a lot of other people.'

Moky: 'In what way?'

Simon: 'I have got my home in the rural areas for instance. Every Zimbabwean can tell you that they have a home and we are saying that those that want to live in town must live decently. And government has a responsibility to find people accommodation and they must build houses for people. And that is exactly what the operation is all about. And that is why we have got Operation Restore Order That operation is on massive house building that is going on around the country as I speak. And its program is school targets. We don't want to see slums.'

Moky: 'You know it is all very good to say that you want people to have good homes, but at the same time you throw people out of what they consider to be their homes, and you are telling them to go back to a rural area. If they had money, or if they had a reason to stay in the rural area, they would be there. The whole point is…'

Simon: 'Go and see how many people are moving into their houses as I speak… and how proud they are compared to what they used to have?'

Moky: 'Zimbabwe is not doing its own PR, because all these things that you are telling us, we don't hear about them. Why?'

Simon: 'We say so, but the point is… who controls the media in the world?'

Moky: 'But you control the media in Zimbabwe. You have media laws that literally shut down any dissenting media.'

Simon: 'That is not true. We have so many independent papers in Zimbabwe.'

Moky: 'You have got the Herald which speaks for you.'

Simon: 'You have got the Zimbabwe Independent which speaks for the opposition. You have got the Gazette which speaks for the opposition. You have got the Standard that speaks for the opposition. You have got the Mirror that speaks for the opposition. But nobody wants to refer to those. They only want to talk about the Herald. Why?'

Moky: 'Can I talk about Zimbabweans here in South Africa. Do you speak to them?'

Simon: 'Oh we meet quite often.'

Moky: 'So do you get feedback from Zimbabweans here?'

Simon: 'Oh sure, everybody wants to get back home. They want to sort things out. And we say, 'Lets talk'.' Some of them go back for Christmas and for holidays. Some of them are working here of course, and Zimbabweans are very industrious people - very honest, very hardworking. And we are proud of them - those that are working here. They go home and they develop their homes exceedingly well. They are doing very well. And they are contributing also to the economy of South Africa. And we are saying that is what should happen in SADAC. We should assist each other. Those that have skills, we don't care where they are, as long as they are within SADAC. Do that, but don't rush to New York. You will get yourself in trouble with the winter there. Climate is good here.'

Moky: 'Obviously you are representing the Zimbabwean government here.'

Simon: 'Sure I am.'

Moky: 'But can I appeal to you as an individual, as a person, as a human being?'

Simon: 'Absolutely.'

Moky: 'Do you have family or relatives in Zimbabwe?'

Simon: 'I have, ja.'

Moky: 'And they know what is going on in Zimbabwe. People cannot eat; they have no jobs; they cannot buy food. What do you say to these people?'

Simon: 'I was watching the marathon the other day and Zimbabweans were winning the race. Are these starving people? … the Zimbabweans winning the race here?'

Moky: 'So you are saying there are no starving people?'

Simon: 'I say, go to the rural areas now as I speak. Go to the rural areas and see what harvest has been done. People are getting on the mat.'

Moky: 'People can afford to buy bread? People can afford to buy…'

Simon: 'I said the turnaround economy was brought about because of the challenges we faced. Because of the sanctions, illegal sanctions which have never gone through the United Nations - just enforced upon Zimbabwe…'

Moky: 'So it is the sanctions that caused…'

Simon: 'Sanctions and drought certainly. Those two are the major ones.'

Moky: 'Nothing to do with party and power, and the way the land redistribution…'

Simon: 'No. There was no other way we could have done it since Britain said they were no longer responsible.'

Moky: 'So do you just think that this is a process that Zimbabwe has to go through?'

Simon: 'It is a process like the armed struggle was a process and it is going to be a wonderful day tomorrow.'

Moky: 'But in the armed struggle people were fighting for freedom; they were fighting for liberty. But now they are fighting for food.'

Simon: 'But some people are not fighting either. Some were saying give up.'

Moky: 'Is there anything you want to say to South Africans who are worried?'

Simon: 'I want to tell the South Africans - those who are worried - go to Zimbabwe, see exactly what is happening on the ground. Don't read papers that are there to vilify the government just because of the land reform program that is not good enough. Go and see what is happening on the ground for yourself.'

Moky: 'So are we welcome to come?'

Simon: 'Yes, you are welcome indeed … you are invited.'

Please credit www.kubatana.net if you make use of material from this website. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License unless stated otherwise.

TOP