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Zimbabwe Parliament debate on Operation Murambatsvina - Page 2
Extracted from Hansard Vol. 32, No. 6
Parliament of Zimbabwe
June 28, 2005

View list of 2005 Zimbabwe Parliamentarians

Jump to contributions by:
- MR. CHIMANIKIRE
- MR. GWETU
- MR. MUKAHLERA
- THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD WELFARE (DR. MUGUTI)
- MR. CHEBUNDO
- MR. CHAMISA
- MINISTERIAL STATEMENT - THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PUBLIC WORKS AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT (MR. CHOMBO)
- Questions asked of Mr Chombo

MR. MUKAHLERA: Thank you Mr. Speaker, I stand to speak on Operation Murambatsvina. I will say that the whole episode is a diabolical exercise. I think it is diabolical in the sense that people are supposed to have shelter but somebody for some reason comes in to take that shelter. It does not matter what shelter you are talking of, it could be my shack but it is still a shelter. I think the repercussions are that from the social aspect, you will realise that a lot of families in towns were supporting the extended family in the rural areas and these same people have been dispossessed. They do not only support their own families in town, they also support those in the rural areas and so I think in a way, this is a very unfortunate exercise.

The second one would be the psychological aspect. I think it is easy for someone who stays at Gunhill to underplay the extend that this exercise has done psychologically to the people involved. We have heard of a lot of people who have committed suicide and in the long run, we will also have a carry on trauma through this exercise. I suppose that if you do nor have empathy, It will not mean anything to you. However, if you have a cultural background which is African, I think you will agree that the repercussions psychologically are quite immense.

On the economic side - I think this is where we a re trying to solve the economic crisis that is in Zimbabwe. An informal sector in any country constitutes a large employment base and therefore on the employment side, we have lost a number of people and we are becoming poorer because if the people are not employed, they actually have to supplement their incomes through the informal sector.

The other thing is the loss of production. I think it is easy for someone to underwrite the productivity of the informal sector. The informal sector has played an important role but now we have lost a lot of revenue. The informal sector used to supply those shops or organisations that still exist because they used to get products for bigger shops.

The other thing is that on the economic factor, there is loss of capital. If I put a brick, this one brick can be capital for Zimbabwe and if you underwrite a structure that has to be put there by an ordinary person and where it facilitates the production of whatever goods, then obviously, the loss of capital is quite immense. On the economic side, there is also loss of foreign currency. I think someone does not understand economics and how it works. Maybe some people were actually exporting certain commodities through the cross border informal traders.

I think the minister himself accepted that the cross border people were central and these are the same people who go to Botswana, Kenya et cetera and get foreign currency or the goods into the country. However, your fight might be that they should have changed the foreign currency through the banks but I think that for those who know what it means in terms of economics - I think everyone wants to get their foreign currency from the informal sector and that goes for all of us. If you want to be honest - I remember I said if I were to give you US$1000, what are you going to do with it? Are you going to go to the RBZ and get an equivalent of Z$9 000 or go to the parallel market? - [MISS MUGABE: Inaudible interjection]-- I think Mai Mugabe also dealt with foreign exchange and I do not know anybody who has not made a forex transaction on the parallel market. If you have not done so, I would want to know.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, if you have nothing more to say, please resume your seat.

MISS. MUGABE: I would ask the Hon. member to withdraw his statement because he associated my name, he must withdraw.

MR. SPEAKER: I have ruled that he resumes his seat because he has nothing to say.

MR. MUKAHLERA: We have always joked with Hon. Mugabe, I do not know why she has taken this seriously, all the same I apologise for that statement.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD WELFARE: Thank you Mr. Speaker, I have noticed that this House is divided into two as usual, Murambatsvina nevanoda tsvina. I just want to make a few comments concerning this murambatsvina business.I hope that the members of the opposition are aware that there are some serious health implications which are associated with poor water and sanitation.

Over the years, members of the opposition should remember that while they were in control of the councils in urban areas of this country, that is when we witnessed the massive increase in garbage in the City of Harare. People were allowed to urinate all over the city. I would like to point out that the opposition should appreciate the health implications that this state of order has now brought. The Government was forced to remove the City Council and put a Commission to run the affairs of the City of Harare.

I would like to put out that diseases like TB, cholera, HIV and sexually transmitted diseases were promoted by the state of tsvina that was existing throughout the country. We also know that issues like skin diseases are also promoted by conditions of uncleanness and disorderliness. I do say that the Government had to intervene from a health point of view so it had to put this operation to clean up the tsvina business in our cities and our environment in general. No nation has a future, no nation has a life, if we do not look down on this and clean it up.

One of the members of the opposition pointed out the there has been cases of people committing suicide as a result of this operation. It is an indication that the person is totally ignorant - [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.]

MR. SIKHALA: Mr. Speaker, it is insulting for an Hon member to call another Hon member ignorant.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order or you will be ordered out of the House. The Speaker said that and I think you were in the House.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH AND CHILD WELFARE: I just want to educate the hon. member that suicide and mental illness, they have nothing to do with the clean up exercise. If anything, the clean exercise is likely to bring more sanity to the people than suicide. If suicide have been done, I am sure from people who have been suffering from mental illness. May I say that the clean up exercise is bringing back better moral standards in the country and reducing the transmission of sexual transmitted diseases especially HIV and AIDS in this country.

MR. CHEBUNDO: Mr. Speaker, I raise to put my voice on the motion. I have been troubled by the suffering of the people. I think you will agree with me especially the constituency hon. members, those who live with the people, those who are experiencing the suffering of the people on day to day basis, will agree with me at this moment and time that people are suffering. People have been subjected top conditions that are inhuman by this programme. Mr. Speaker, I entered in this august House 45 minutes late simply because I was attending to some people who were suffering in my constituency. Let me give you an example of one such incident that has led to my delay; a lady who is like any other lady in this august House gave birth last week in Kwekwe General Hospital, when she the hospital for her home, she discovered that the so called illegal structure had been brought down. Three of her children who were staying alone, because she is a single mother were nowhere to be seen so as all her belongings.

Two days later my fellow Hon. friend, Dr. Muguti, who has just made a contribution and whom I thought should be the one to champion the issues that are health related but is actually working against that he would know better that such conditions - when somebody is out of the hospital having given birth and is subjected to conditions of this nature in winter, moreso with a baby sleeping in the open, then the kind of issues like pneumonia will obviously attack them. I had to run around to assist that lady not that she is suffering because of natural conditions but because of man made conditions more so, Government made conditions.

Mr. Speaker, if one tries to go by the Bible, there are people who are referred to as pagans. These are people who are cruel. I am just referring to the Bible. It says that if a person makes another person suffer, that person is regarded as a pagan. I believe as a God fearing person -- I am not saying that there is one particular person who is being described as such. One preacher was saying to me the day before yesterday, in an apparent reference to what is going on in this country today, there are people who make other people suffer and if those people die like we all believe that there is life after death, obviously we all know that there are two paths that we have to follow, either you go to Jesus or Satan. What is happening I think personally, if the people who are causing these people to die, when they die themselves, will without being asked go to Satan on their own. However, even Satan will not agree on paternity because this cruelty is not in his books . . .

MR. SPEAKER: The Bible also says you may not judge.

MR. CHEBUNDO: Thank you Mr. Speaker for that. I believe our Government has made some mistakes by not getting its priorities right when it engaged in this programme. The Government should have given its subjects enough notice so that those people could try to correct what the Government says is unlawful and the Government should also have made alternative plans before they removed people. At the moment people are living in the open.

MR. SPEAKER: Order Hon. Biti. (Hon. Biti having passed between the Chair and the Hon. member on the floor)

MR. CHEBUNDO: What the Government did is like after having bathed a child, then throw away both dirty water, dish and child. We know that the damage that has been done is irreversible but what we are saying is that instead of going up to August as has been announced by the Government, the Government should swallow its pride and stop this programme so that an alternative programme is put in place first.

The Government is made up of human beings, surely with all these calls from the august House, from the other sectors and from outside, the Government should pay heed. One other thing that I want to say is that, I know from the other angle, the Government must be trying to say, if we clean up and have an orderly arrangement, then we might be seen to be improving our image. I think this act alone is doing more harm than good and therefore the government should stop this programme.

Again to touch on the issue of HIV /AIDS which Hon. Dr. Muguti talked about, the conditions that have been created are doing more harm in our efforts to try to manage the spread of HIV/AIDS. When people have no other means of living from their markets and they have nowhere to stay, obviously these people become more vulnerable to those who want to take advantage of them. There are many people who are crammed in small houses, being housed by their friends and relatives. Imagine those conditions - these are conditions that are conducive to the spread of HIV/AIDS. Even the programme of trying to introduce ARVs we are not going to be effective as a Ministry. If we look at the social sector, how many children have been affected so far and removed form their schools and this is the kind of thing that we are saying is not good?

I think it is our duty as Members of Parliament to inform the Government what the people are saying out there. -[AN HON. MEMBER: We know ] - you do not know.

MR. SPEAKER: Order! Address the Chair.

MR. CHEBUNDO: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member who has made that statement, soon after being appointed Deputy Minister of Information ventured into a sector that is not his - grabbing land . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order.

THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND PUBLICITY: On a point of order, I would like to ask the Hon. member to withdraw his statement. His sentiments, to me I think he is mixing issues, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: I think the Hon. member should not listen to interjections because it derails his speech and he fell into that trap. You may continue.

MR. CHEBUNDO: He might have derailed me but I think he got the message. There are quite a number of reasons why the Government has embarked on this programme and I think it is our duty as Members of Parliament to know what the people are saying. One such reason which is being advanced by the people is that the Government is trying to save its face and the Government . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, Could you please switch off all the cell phones.

MR. CHEBUNDO: What is being said by the Government does not really hold water, given the modalities they have gone through this programme. Therefore, the Government might be trying to say to people in the urban areas, who have always voted for the MDC, should be deported from the urban areas to the rural areas so that when the Government is thinking about the voting in future, they will be less people in the urban areas to vote for the MDC. I am just saying what the people are thinking.

The other reason is that the Government feels that the fact that the war veterans . . .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, before you entered the House, I did ask the other Hon. member to resume his seat when he feel short of what to say. There is nothing between the war veterans and Operation Murambatsvina. So, if you are going to discuss that discussion , the Speaker would like top benefit from it.

MR. CHEBUNDO: I beg to be educated by the Speaker. My layman understanding is that you can also visit other issues that have relevance to the subject matter and you try to qualify it.

MR. SPEAKER: The Speaker has no opportunity to debate but that is my ruling.

MR. CHEBUNDO: I was saying that some of the reasons observed by the people is that after subjecting all the people to this, therefore the Government is saying we do not mind the other sectors who are used to support us because their usefulness is over and they can be disregarded, even if they were friends in the past.

The other thing is that the Government is trying to say let us do away with the 70% informal sector activity. Our economy was being sustained by that 70% sector being the informal sector and the reason for the Government to attack that is probably saying let us make room for our friends so that they can come and invest here, hence they do away with the former investment that used to come from the west. I am saying will benefit the Government because these are the reasons that people are observing.

My last point, again I want to reiterate on the point by saying at this point in time, the Government has heard that the people are crying. Surely, if the people are suffering, let the Government stop this programme and make sure that there is an alternative programme before they continue to effect that programme. We would not want the likes of Minister Chombo to go to the so called designated farms and go to the extend of asking ZBC to take pictures of old that were built some six months ago and say that these are the new houses that we are starting. People have got eyes to see that even if you put a picture from The Herald that this cement on this picture is six months old and you want to deceive the people of Zimbabwe. Let us face reality Mr. Speaker.

MR. CHAMISA: Because I am a proud African, I am going to speak in Shona. In the interest also of the Members of Parliament, my Shona is going to be the vehicle through which I am going to speak.

Most of the Hon. members who come here talk about Blair, the whites but they use English which is Blair's language and they do not honour their mother language. I had one female Hon. member who is a respectable woman stuttering to speak in English to try and deliver her speech.

On the issue of Operation Muramabtsvina, this issue has caused untold suffering to the people of Zimbabwe. This operation has targeted the poor and it is affecting those who are trying to uplift their living. The people who are affected are those living in the high density suburbs where the poor are. Hon. Nyoni, who is responsible for Small Enterprises, I wonder where she is going to retrieve all that money which is owed by those people who were affected by Operation Murambatsvina. Those people who benefited from the Small and Medium Enterprises are the people who are affected by this operation such that they do not know whether they are coming or going.

What people would want to see in Zimbabwe is less of those queues that we see on a daily basis. What they do not want to see is the kind of treatment they are receiving from this Government. The ministers are the worst culprits when it comes to corruption and this black market issue. Where I come from in Kuwadzana, it is an upcoming location. We do not have any Tuck shops or any supermarkets but after Operation Murambatsvina, the people of Kuwadzana are having difficulties in accessing food stuffs. We had a home industry in Kuwadzana employing over six hundred people but they are no longer there. What I know is that Hon. Nyoni, who is she going to represent because many of those people who used to operate that home industry in Kuwadzana are no longer there.

I think this Government should come up with programmes that will benefit the people. That is what the people would want to see, what people of Zimbabwe do not want to see is the leadership which does not take care of its people. People are being assaulted by their Government. It does not mean people of Zimbabwe do not want to be ruled, they want to be ruled but they want a good Government. Right now they are saying there is a term which says "a small beginning makes a good ending".

Mr. Speaker, the Government is now talking about 'Operation Garikai', why is it that Government is talking about slogans and slogans? What I know is that not all people are benefiting from Operation Garikai. People who are being allocated stands are being asked to produce ZANU PF cards. If it is the Government of the people, why should it ask for cards? Zimbabweans want to come to a point whether you are a ZANU Ndonga or a NDU supporter; one should be respected because of her or his political affiliation. This is what we want as Zimbabweans.

Mr. Speaker this operation has caused a lot of suffering and trauma to many Zimbabweans. The Government accuses the MDC for causing sanctions but this is caused by the way this Government behaves. Right now they have been assaulting people, taking away their homes, children have died and some people were raped. Hon. Muguti you know it, talk of the town where you used to benefit ...

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order, please withdraw that statement.

MR. CHAMISA: I am sorry Hon. Speaker. I wanted to say people who are suffering because of 'Operation Murambatsvina' are many. If this is the people's Government, in future if they would want to come up with a programme, they should consult many stakeholders so that in the end, Government would come up with a noble idea. They should not look where this noble idea is coming from, it does not matter whether it is coming from MDC or NDU.

The United Nations Delegation is not coming to see what Zimbabwe is doing but to see how Government has caused the suffering of the people. This follows the outcry world wide because of the way this Government is treating people. We, what we want as youth - they raped their own people and place them in slavery. What we want is that Government should know that the war was fought for every Zimbabwean not ZANU PF members only. The ZANU PF is not licensed to do what ever it wants with the people of Zimbabwe. The people who died during the liberation war died for this country to be liberated. We want people to be proud of their country.

Mr. Speaker, Operation Murambatsvina is a programme which has brought misery and suffering to the people of Zimbabwe. I want to urge the Government to alleviate the lives of people who are sleeping in the open. I would like to thank Hon. members who have been listening to my debate and I hope Hon. members will go and spread my views so that Murambatsvina ends with immediate effect. "Operation Garikai" which is now being talked about should not be in slogans only but in reality .

MR. SPEAKER: I have been asked by the Minister of Local Government to make a Ministerial Statement on the issue we are discussing.

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