Back to Index

This article participates on the following special index pages:

"In the Hotseat" discusses the mammoth humanitarian crisis in Zimbabwe
SW Radio Africa
June 13, 2005

Below is the transcript of "In the Hotseat" hosted by Violet Gonda.

In the hot seat today is a teleconference discussion to deal with the mammoth humanitarian crisis in Zimbabwe. To discuss the issue with me, we have Professor Welshman Ncube the MDC's Secretary General speaking to us from Zimbabwe. We have Miloon Kothari Special Rapporteur on Adequate Housing for the United Nations Commission on Human Rights in Geneva and a Zimbabwean journalist, Basildon Peta, who is in South Africa.

Violet Gonda: I'm going to start with Professor Welshman Ncube. There have been some reports in the state media alleging that the Broad Alliance which called for the mass stay-aways to protest against the evictions and destruction is in tatters, and quotes you as saying you are not aware of this coalition and what the way forward is. So, what exactly is the position of the MDC on the mass stay-away and what is the MDC going to do about the destruction of the settlements?

Professor Ncube: Well, I will not waste time talking about things which are in the state media, because all of it is plain rubbish. The important thing is that we have a catastrophe in our hands, we have a humanitarian crisis which is man made, which is deliberately created by a wicked government. We have hundreds and hundreds of people whose homes have been destroyed, who have been rendered homeless and they are left in the open cold as we speak, and we as the MDC are doing everything that we can to assist many of these people with alternative temporary shelter in conjunction with the churches and we are trying to get them food in places like Hatcliffe, in Bulawayo, in my constituency in Makakoba, in Kilarney in Mbare. And its a huge, huge task and we are doing everything that we can.

Violet Gonda: And Basildon Peta, from the media point of view first of all, how do you see events in Zimbabwe?

Basildon Peta: Well, very depressing indeed. The tragic situation in Zimbabwe keeps on worsening by the day, and the sad thing is I can see that there is some fatigue now in the media about the Zimbabwe issue. You know, when the people were being evicted when the informal settlements were being destroyed, there was barely a mention of that in the South African media. Well, there have been issues here that have been dominating news, like the Zuma affair, but, there has just not been any fair reporting of this humanitarian crisis in Zimbabwe to try and raise awareness amongst those who can help. It has been a sad thing indeed.

Violet Gonda: Now, we'll come back to the situation in South Africa because there are a lot of Zimbabweans, refugees who are living in South Africa and they are suffering and we have heard that there is an influx now of refugees as a result of the humanitarian crisis in Zimbabwe. Now, we are going to go to Mr Miloon Kothari the UN Special Rapporteur. First of all, I understand that you are compiling statistics on the crisis in Zimbabwe. How do you also view the events in Zimbabwe?

Miloon Kothari: well, I have just last week issued a statement saying that the overwhelming evidence indicates that there are gross human rights violations taking place in Zimbabwe, and we are continuing to compile information and the figure that has been used of 200 000 people that have been effectively made homeless and recent information indicates that the vast majority have not been offered adequate re-settlement or compensation. What is very disturbing is the information we have received from the ground of particularly vulnerable groups; widows, HIV/ AIDS orphans and others who are affected and who are homeless. So this is all very disturbing information and from my assessment here from all the information we have been getting, I can confirm that it sounds that the situation is getting worse and worse and it very much calls into question the voluntary committments that Zimbabwe has made to international human rights instruments, particularly the Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

Violet Gonda: And Mr Kothari, I understand that you actually sent an urgent appeal to the Zimbabwean Foreign Affairs Minister urging the government to immediately halt the mass forced evictions and you also asked on measures taken to prevent it. Now, did you get any response, because the evictions are still continuing.

Miloon Kothari: Yes, I sent an urgent communication on the 3rd June asking what steps had been taken and to immediately cease the evictions. We have not as yet received a response. We have been told that a response is being compiled by the government, so we are waiting for that. But, while we wait we continue to compile information and as I indicated the situation does look very, very serious indeed. And, I think what appears to complicate the matter right now is that government seems to be at one level in a state of denial, because they are not fully revealing the extent of the crisis to the international community. Not only the housing crisis, that has been there for a long time, but also regarding food, health, education. And I think that perhaps could be a first step forward that could have been positive. I would have been pleased if, in this programme, we would have been joined by someone from the government but that not being the case, I think its important that the government admits the scale of the problem. I think that will make it easier for everyone to assist, including the international community.

Violet Gonda: We actually tried to get someone from the government, but, as you know the government does not talk to SW Radio Africa and they say that we are banned so we did try but they refused to talk to us.

Miloon Kothari: Oh, Ok.

Violet Gonda: Now it's pretty clear that many people know that there is a crisis in Zimbabwe, and I'm sure they would want to know what the way forward is. So I'm going to go back to Professor Welshman Ncube and ask what exactly are the MDC's plans for confronting the Mugabe regime, especially with this crisis, with the evictions that are underway. Is Mass Action a realistic proposition for Zimbabweans and what will it actually take to get Zimbabweans onto the streets in their thousands Professor Ncube?

Professor Ncube: the struggle for democratic rights and for democracy is always a realistic option. There is no situation where we can say 'we give up the struggle to be free', the whole history of mankind all over the world is always a struggle to realise liberty and to realise freedom and to realise the greater good for mankind. So whatever the difficulties for Mass Action in Zimbabwe today, it remains the only option available for the people to confront the Mugabe regime until it agrees to restore the peoples' rights and democracy in the country and stop this massive assault on people's lives. And, you asked about the way forward, the way forward as we see it is for all the democratic forces to unite, to work together. There will be fed back, there will be action which will be organised which will not be as successful as people want and I know that people are impatient, they are suffering and they want instant results. But, clearly, the sort of regime that we are dealing with is not the sort of regime that can be confronted overnight and there will be an outcome favourable to the people. We all have to brace ourselves to the fact that we are going to have a long haul struggle. As long as we remain focused, we remain united and we remain focused on the common enemy, and that is what is important. And for us we will work within the Broad Alliance, we will work with other actors in civil society to consider every course of action that is available to us.

Violet Gonda: Now many people were quite confused during this last stay-away as to why people didn't heed the call by the Broad Alliance to stay at home and protest against these evictions. Now, Basildon, the Broad Alliance were reported to have said that there was a lack of organisation and maybe a lack of courage on the part of Zimbabweans. Now, from your point of view, are Zimbabweans capable of being able to launch massive protest?

Basildon Peta: well if you recall very well its only a few years ago when the ZCTU led these sort of actions which were hugely successful. And, even the MDC itself, the last mass action it called, you remember, which resulted in Mr Tsvangirai spending two weeks in jail over Treason, was also hugely successful, it shut down the entire country and I think civic society in Zimbabwe is capable of organising this kind of protest, it's just a matter of organisation. I personally don't think it was a wise idea for the MDC to issue its public statement endorsing this mass action at the eleventh hour on the eve of the action itself. As you know the MDC has got the largest constituency among all those groups that were calling for mass action; I think the MDC commands the biggest support base and an earlier call to its supporters to join the action would have been better in my view. But I do not agree with the perception that because this particular action failed then mass action is no longer an action. I agree with Prof Ncube that it remains one of the basic tools that Zimbabweans can use in their fight for freedom and in trying to get this moronic regime of Robert Mugabe to see the light of day and start behaving properly.

Violet Gonda: Now, Mr Kothari, under the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights which Zimbabwe actually ratified, forced evictions, as you said, can only be carried out under specific circumstances, and some of those include exploring alternative measures with the effective persons before carrying out evictions, and even finding legal remedies like serving people with eviction notices. Now, clearly this is not the case in Zimbabwe and the Zimbabwean government is clearly violating International Human Rights laws. The question is how seriously does the UN view the crisis in Zimbabwe, because there are some who think that if the UN thought that the crisis in Zimbabwe was very serious it would have brought this matter to the Security Council.

Miloon Kothari: well, I think it's perhaps too early for that, we are compiling information and my hope is that both the High Commissioner for Human Rights and perhaps the Secretary General will speak out more, also publicly on the matter. But certainly what you were saying about complying with the international obligations, the government has not done that. And, in fact what seems to have happened is that because of the increase in homelessness, and this is something that I pointed out in my report, that whenever there are deliberate steps taken by states that increase homelessness, it just reinforces the impunity of the authorities and it deepens poverty, and I think this is the crisis that we are facing and certainly the UN is very closely monitoring the situation. As you know some of us have spoken out and we will continue to do that . But we have to wait also to hear back from the government and then to contemplate further action. But we very much support any struggle that is on going for people to defend their human rights.

Violet Gonda: And so does this mean that the UN can work with the Alliance and political parties to pressure the government?

Miloon Kothari: Well we can work with them certainly within the scope that is provided by the International Human Rights Instruments and I think that is perhaps the common ground that we would have and that we would need to explore. But, in my independent capacity I can of course work with them but the UN as an Inter-governmental body also has to also consult with states and has to wait for a response from the government and to let the diplomatic channels work. Sometimes we get impatient with that, but that is the procedure being followed. But in my independent capacity as Special Rapporteur with the Commission on Human Rights, I can of course develop relations as I feel are required.

Violet Gonda: And, Basildon, you are there in South Africa, what is the South African President, Thabo Mbeki's response been, because we understand that soon South Africa will have to brace itself for an influx of refugees.

Basildon Peta: Well, President Mbeki has not said anything, and as I said earlier on, the focus here has been on the so-called 'Zuma-gate' affair; Mr Mbeki's deputy who has currently facing calls to resign over his relationship with a businessman who was convicted of corruption. So, that has consumed much of the media space here, and the South African government has not said anything. In fact, one of the newspapers here, yesterday, in its editorial, that is the 'Citizen', expressed concern at how the humanitarian crisis in Zimbabwe has just been allowed to pass un-noticed in South Africa because of all these problems here that they are trying to deal with, that is, their own problem. So, in short, Mbeki has not said anything and I don't expect him to say anything. He is leaving today for Qatar for the G 77 and China Summit and his government as I say, will not say anything and we don't expect them to say anything. They never say anything anyway if bad things happen in Zimbabwe, they prefer their 'quiet diplomacy' approach.

Violet Gonda: And, Professor Ncube, what has come out of the MDC lobbying you know of SADC leaders, can you give us anything specific at all about this?

Professor Ncube: If you asking about lobbying around the evictions, obviously this has only been happening in the last two, three weeks and we have not been lobbying any SADC countries directly in the context of the humanitarian crisis, but of course, we have been engaged with SADC and with the rest of the international community over the general crisis in Zimbabwe for a very long time and regrettably the position of SADCC as far as we are concerned, remains unsatisfactory and indeed has been one of quiet endorsement of the chaos which has been happening in Zimbabwe and that is a tragedy because we have had solidarity with dictatorship rather than solidarity with the people of Zimbabwe. But we will continue to engage the international community in its entirety, SADC included, over the Zimbabwean crisis even in the context of its recent massive retribution at the urban populations for voting against ZANU PF and people are being rendered homeless, are being exposed to hunger, to poverty, and indeed, to death by the actions of this regime, but, unfortunately our history in Southern Africa, or in Africa, is that we hardly ever criticise each other and so we don't expect a great deal from the SADC region.

Violet Gonda: And I guess the questions always come back to the domestic front, what options do you have exactly to confront the Mugabe regime?

Professor Ncube: the options are very clear, and that is that we have to challenge the regime at every level, whether you are challenging it in Parliament, you are challenging it in the streets, you are challenging it everywhere. And the people of Zimbabwe to be organised to stand up and we know that people have been brutalised for five years and many, many people are afraid, but history teaches that we cannot be afraid to fight for our own liberty and in this instance we are not going to sit back. In this case there is only one option and that is confronting the Mugabe regime. The various forms of mass action which are available to us; boycotts, stay-aways, demonstrations, they will all be involved. People should not expect immediate success, it is going to be a struggle, we are going to suffer more, people will be detained, will be arrested, will be killed, but that is a price that ultimately we will all have to be prepared to pay in order to be free.

Violet Gonda: Mr Kothari, do you have a final word, or do you have anything to add to what Professor Welshman Ncube was saying?

Miloon Kothari: No, no, as I said we will continue to monitor the situation and we will continue to speak out and we are hoping that the government will change track and stop the violations that are taking place and assess the situation instead of just going headlong into a much bigger crisis that seems to have been precipitated.

Violet Gonda: And Basildon, a final word?

Basildon Peta: well, I think the people of Zimbabwe, both inside the country and outside, we must realise that each one of us has got a role to play in helping in the whole process of trying to get rid of a despicable regime. There has been too much expectation of action from the MDC alone, and I don't think that is helping advance the struggle. All of us wherever we are, we must contribute something in this struggle, rather than leave it to one political party that is operating under very difficult conditions. The MDC is the instrument through which we can achieve change but I believe every one of us has an important role to play, and we should self introspect and ask ourselves wherever you are, what are you doing to help in the democratisation struggle for Zimbabwe.

Please credit www.kubatana.net if you make use of material from this website. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License unless stated otherwise.

TOP