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Zimbabwe sitting on a time bomb. Round table discussion with MDC MP Tendai Biti and Professors Stanford Mukasa and Brian Raftopoulos
Violent Gonda, Short Wave Radio Africa
May 27, 2005

Violet Gonda spoke with MDC MP Tendai Biti and Professors Stanford Mukasa and Brian Raftopoulos on Newsreel Friday 27th May 2005. Below is the transcript

Violet: Zimbabwe is sitting on a time bomb ready to explode as at least 17 000 people have been arrested countrywide. Many more have lost their livelihoods this past week alone. Soldiers, riot police and support units have continued their campaign against innocent vendors and have taken their so called 'clean-up' campaign to residential areas. Many victims of the attacks tell us the riot police are punishing them for voting for the MDC while others say their businesses are being sacrificed to pave way for the Chinese. On the back of all this the food situation remains critical while millions of Zimbabweans are facing starvation. There is a lot of anger and in some suburbs people are beginning to retaliate as the state authorities are destroying people's lives. But the resistance has been sporadic. There seems to be a shortage of ideas on how to get out of this deteriorating situation. Many people are asking where the MDC and civil society stand.

To discuss various ideas around this I spoke to MDC MP and Lawyer, Tendai Biti, Civic Leader Brian Raftopoulos and political commentator Professor Stanford Mukasa. The MDC has been blamed by many for not leading the masses in protest so I started off by asking MDC MP Tendai Biti to outline his party's role in trying to find a solution to the crisis.

Tendai Biti: Well, I mean the Zimbabweans and citizens of Zimbabwe have a duty to defend themselves against fascism and somebody has to provide that leadership and I can assure you that leadership will be provided. I can't tell you by who but I can assure you that there will be decisive action against fascism and I can tell you that the next few days are going to be interesting

Violet: And you know most people say that its also time to stop talking about what the MDC needs to do as a lot of people say its also time for the MDC to direct people. Now what about the role of the civic society in all this? Professor Raftopoulos, stakeholders speak the same language but they don't seem to be coming out and speaking with one voice. What's happening here?

Brian Raftopoulos: Well I think that just speaking to the Civics today, it's clear they are trying to first of all assess what's happening on the ground but also trying to see how they can channel this into some kind of sustained position and also trying to put forward alternatives on what can be done. There's a crisis that has been created by this State. It has undermined Local Government structures it has created poverty in the cities and now its policing the crisis rather than presenting proper alternatives. So clearly there is both a crisis and an opportunity here for all involved.

Violet: And now, Professor Mukasa, stakeholders are most likely in a tricky position and as you heard from Tendai Biti, he says he can't say how or by who this sort of action is going to fall under or happen. But the general consensus is that the power to bring change in Zimbabwe lies with the people of Zimbabwe. How can people reclaim that power?

Stanford Mukasa: I was very interested to hear what Mr Biti said, and it's very encouraging to hear what he has said. I think the starting point here is what will the people of Zimbabwe do? There has been a tendency to think that the people of Zimbabwe are sitting by the rivers of Babylon, weeping and hoping for some diving intervention from the International Community. Obviously that is not going to happen, and the question that has been raised in the past few years or so is 'why is there an absence of anger? Why is there an absence of outrage among the people of Zimbabwe?' Unfortunately, there have been too many apologists for no action on behalf of the people of Zimbabwe. We know how ruthless and how brutal the Mugabe regime, as Doctor Biti rightly stated, the Mugabe fascist regime, it can be they are following right in the footsteps of Mussolini fascism of the 1920's where they are mobilising youth militia and they are terrorising the civic groups and the population. The question as you raised in terms of how can the people of Zimbabwe reclaim their independence, their dignity and their country is a question that one would hope would come spontaneously from the people of Zimbabwe. I liked what Priscilla Mishihairabwi said, that if you feel harassed, if you feel tortured, if you feel your dignity undermined, you have a right to stand up and say 'Enough is Enough'. And, everybody, the international community, is now looking at the people of Zimbabwe. There needs to be a spontaneous uprising from the people of Zimbabwe. Now the question is: can the people of Zimbabwe do it on their own spontaneously or do we look at the civic leadership in Zimbabwe to play that role

Violet: That's exactly what we want to ask Tendai Biti who is actually on the ground, that waiting for people to initiate the action is not enough but can he see Zimbabweans channelling their anger at the destruction and theft towards into action to bring about change?

Tendai Biti: Well, I can't tell you and the 100's of Central Intelligence Organisation officers that I know are listening to me right now about who is going to provide the leadership, who is going to do what and so forth. But what I can guarantee you is that the anger is overflowing in our veins, anger is overflowing in the veins of average Zimbabweans, and I can guarantee you that people are going to defend themselves, that I can guarantee you. But I cannot lay out a roadmap for you as to who is going to lead what, what strategy positions are going to be taken and so forth. But as I said before, I can assure you that the time for smiling at fascism is over and the citizen has a right to defend herself.

Violet: But, the situation in Zimbabwe is the sort of thing that will trigger spontaneous riots, and it hasn't happened yet. Why do you think it hasn't happened yet?

Tendai Biti: Well, spontaneous riots are taking place right now. But they are spontaneous so therefore there is no co-ordination. Police and youths spent the whole night fighting running battles in places like Glen View yesterday. I can assure you that right now as we speak there is a chaos that is taking place in Hatcliffe as police move in to destroy the informal settlements there. So things are happening but they are happening in a chaotic and uncoordinated manner and I'm saying that maybe the time for a co-ordinated action is near. I can not give you the logistics and the chemistry of that action maybe for obvious reasons.

Stanford Mukasa: May I ask Mr Biti? Mr Biti do you see the Zimbabwean situation right now similar to that of the Mass Democratic Movement in apartheid South Africa in the late 1980's where there was a spontaneous uprising and the apartheid regime could not identify the leadership and to some extend people felt the ANC was being eclipsed, was becoming a thing of the past. But later on, what the ANC did was to provide a structure for the negotiations that came in later on. Do you see that kind of situation emerging in Zimbabwe now?

Tendai Biti: well I think first let me say that there was a decisive leadership internally in apartheid South Africa in the late 80's and early 90's, that was the UDF. And the UDF at its core had the Churches, Civic Societies and most importantly, a very strong and a very active Trades Union movement. I don't want to attack or criticise anyone but I think that in Zimbabwe spontaneous things are going to take place but I think that there has to be organised resistance, and I see political elements playing a bigger role than civic elements, but that is my personal opinion.

Violet: Now, Professor Raftopoulos, as noted, the riots have been spontaneous now would you agree that the biggest problem is not about the lack of leadership but apathy. Because it seems the majority of people are simply unwilling to take responsibility for their own action.

Brian Raftopoulos: Well I think that at the moment many urbanites are being very seriously provoked and I think that they are going to respond increasingly. I think it's important to remember and understand this is a very repressive state. We are likely to see many causalities but I think this is a new phase of struggle, and new contradictions emerging in the economy and the politics. This is a state that has been very anti urban, especially in the last five years. So a very anti urban political position being taken here, the anti urban provocation and people are responding. I think we are going to see some new dynamics unfolding. Where it will lead is still uncertain at the moment.

Violet: Many people are anxious to find out when what it will happen because the chaos, the mayhem and the crisis in Zimbabwe has been going on for a long time and many people want to know when it's going end. Now Professor Mukasa, what is the general thinking in the international community about events in Zimbabwe, especially from where you are in America?

Stanford Mukasa: The feeling here amongst some quarters especially in the governmental circles, and I must say that we have been in contact with them to see what can be done to assist the situation in Zimbabwe. But the thinking right now, like at the State Department, is that the Zimbabweans themselves have not yet shown any real, significant, sustained and persistent sense of anger that can translate itself into action. The whole world has watched Kurgistan, Ukraine, Haiti, Togo, and some years back Seychelles. And in all those areas people have risen and really made some changes. In Kurgistan right now the opposition leader from whom the votes were stolen, is now in power. You've got the same thing in Ukraine and things like that. So people are looking at Zimbabwe relative and in the context of what people in other countries have been able to do by way of reclaiming their independence. And so the question now is how come, if they can do it in Togo if they do it in Ukraine and Haiti, how come we can't see something equivalent to that. We know that the geo- politics and historical situations in those different countries will differ.

You know, situations differ from each other. But there is a common thread that goes from Haiti to Ukraine, to Kurgistan, to Seychelles and to all those other places. Namely that if the people are determined, if people feel that they no longer want that regime then the people themselves must stand up and reclaim that regime. It is at that critical stage that the international community will step in now. Once they have seen that the people have taken the leadership, this is the thinking right now. And for a long time this doesn't seem to be happening in Zimbabwe. Another point that you raise, why has it taken so long for this anger to translate itself into action. It's been five years and Mugabe has taken liberties with Zimbabweans. The question that arises now is why should anyone believe that this time its for real when there have been so many false starts in the past. There was June two years ago, the mass stay-away that one hoped was going to be the final blow, something that was going to real action, it just fizzled out. So there have been so many false starts in the past, to the extent that I guess the question is 'what assurance can you give that this time it's for real'?

Violet: I think we can ask that question to Tendai Biti. Do you agree with what Professor Mukasa is saying that why should anyone believe that this will be the real thing as there have been so many false starts. What can you say about this?

Tendai Biti: Firstly I think let us not underestimate the subjective nature of the fascist cabal that is in control of Zimbabwe and yes, examples have come particularly from the former Soviet Union, particularly Ukraine, Georgia and now Kazakstan. Togo is a bad example because people have gone in the street in Togo but there has been nothing, there has been no change. And let me tell you something about the international community, it will not come to your aid. It doesn't come to the aid of any people in our situation so you can not underestimate the subjective nature of the regime in Harare. And I must also add, to those that are eager to see action, I must say yes, let action come and let it be organised by Zimbabweans, as will happen. But it would be very dangerous not to be strategic, it would be very dangerous not to pause and reflect. One of the things that any decent Zimbabwean must be asking himself is that why is this regime going all out to literally provoke the people, to actually invite and push if you like, protest and action against it. So, whilst I agree with everything that the Professor is saying, I don't want to romanticise the African dictatorship and I don't want to re-produce scenarios that have existed anywhere and try to superimpose them on Zimbabwe when Zimbabwe is so subjective.

Violet: And Professor Raftopoulos, bottom line, as many people say waiting for the opposition party or civic leaders is not a good enough excuse as people are continuing to live with this hell. Can people start the process without leadership and especially under this oppressive regime?

Brian Raftopoulos: I think individuals in a situation like this will always look for leadership. I think its very problematic to draw analogies from other parts of the world. There were very specific conditions in the Ukraine and in Togo. Zimbabwe is a very particular situation and I think if people are looking for quick answers here and hoping that this particular outbreak of activity will bring down the state I think it will they will be looking in the wrong direction. I think this will be a going to be a struggle that's take time, its going to take different kind of strategies and I think we must be careful not to draw analogies elsewhere but to study our own situation very carefully, to think strategically and think very carefully how we should move.

Stanford Mukasa: If I can respond to that. I do appreciate that we cannot just superimpose experiences from elsewhere, but I think international experiences sometimes do help in plotting a strategy. Sometimes if you become to insular, if you look at your own experiences at the exclusion of what has happened elsewhere there's a problem that you are going to have a rather tunnel vision of your strategies. We now live in an international community and certainly experiences elsewhere can be an inspiration. I'm not talking about an imposition in terms of what people are like there, but at least to draw an inspiration. As an example, in 1989 when people of East Berlin marched to the wall and pulled it down, that became an inspiration to many people around the world. They looked at that heavily, militarily fortified structure. I've been to that wall myself and I saw it. Anybody who saw that wall and the way it was militarily fortified it would have been unthinkable that any civilians could approach that wall the way they did and pull it down. Now, let's forget the East West and Western propaganda about that wall, let's just focus on the East Berliners. Let's just focus on the ordinary common East Berliners. The fact that they were able to do what people thought might not be possible should serve as an inspiration. While I do agree that we cannot experiences of people form Togo and other countries, it seems we can draw inspiration in terms of determination of people.

Sometimes when people exclude experiences from other countries that will reinforce the feeling of fear. When you look at the Mugabe regime and how militarily structured it is, what you have now is a military regime in Zimbabwe, similar to the militarisation of the apartheid state in South Africa with all its structures and all its agents all militarily led, we have the same right now in Zimbabwe today But, if you look at your own experience, and you say I'm going to strategise on the basis of just my own experience and you don't learn from other experiences, sometimes that can create a problem. And this is where I'm heading. The reason I am mentioning those other place is that I am saying, look, let us draw inspiration. In all of those countries you had very heavily armed military who would not hesitate to use force. If we go to South Africa we had a regime that was even more militarily strong than Mugabe's regime and yet sixteen year old children of Soweto were able to stand up. And that's why I'm saying sometimes its useful to look out and see what other people are doing by way of reclaiming their sovereignty. Just the other day I was talking to a Nigerian here who was able to organise a campaign against the Abacha regime and he was telling me that you know what you Zimbabweans need to do. You need to learn strategies and experiences from other people, not for the purposes of absorbing them hook line and sinker, but to draw inspiration, but to draw inspiration, to learn from their experiences, to learn how to deal with the enemy to learn how to identify the enemy, to learn how to analyse the enemy.

You know, Mugabe is just a representation of a hydra-headed monster which permeates the fabric of the Zimbabwean society. And one other people that I told people is that Zimbabwe's struggle is not really a race struggle or a tribal struggle; it's a class struggle. You have people in ZANU (PF), in the CIO and in the military who are dirt poor. So those things are helped by looking at experiences from other places.

Violet: Professor Raftopoulos do you agree with these sentiments raised by Professor Mukasa?

Brian Raftopoulos: Yes, I think it's correct, one needs to learn and I think Zimbabweans, both activists and academics have looked around the world considerably over the last few years and in fact have begun to form linkages with groups for example in South Africa. Civics, Trades Unions now working across the border. There's much stronger linkages between the Civics and Trades Unions now working across the border, and I think there's much stronger linkages between the Civics in the two countries. And I think drawing inspiration is absolutely essential, I would totally agree with that. I think what happens then is you need to use that inspiration to look very concretely how it can apply in your particular situation. And that's been the particular issue here, what is the current configuration of this state, how is it related to regional politics and how has it been able to prevent being isolated as a state. The difference between Zimbabwe and the apartheid state is that the apartheid state was isolated internationally. This state is very much posited by both regional and continental organisations and Mugabe has managed to create a solidarity around it. So there is a different kind of security and diplomatic issues which are part of this struggle and that concrete reality I think has to be looked at very carefully.

Violet: And Tendai, do you agree with that too?

Tendai Biti: Well it's something that I've had several debates about with Professor Brian Raftopoulos. There are two things that I want to restate. That, we have to think strategically. Secondly that the struggle against this regime is not going to be a short sprint. Yes, we are entitled and we should draw inspiration from all the recent purple or orange revolutions that have taken place around the world, but in thinking strategically we must also understand our subjective situation. Without that we will flounder and give more ammunition and give more fuel to this regime. This regime has got constituencies. Constituencies internally and constituencies externally. We have to budget for that. But, yes, there is an obligation, particularly right now, to defend ourselves, for the people to rise. Who is going to provide the leadership, what are the dynamics, I can's say now, but what I can say is that things are going to happen.

Violet: I'm afraid this debate can go on forever, but we have to end somewhere somehow. But while you are all strategising to find out how we can solve this crisis, and hopefully if things do change in the near future, we hope to bring you back to this round table and discuss more about the unfolding events in Zimbabwe. Thank you very much.

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