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'Behind the Headlines' interviews Lovemore Madhuku
SW Radio Africa
March 17, 2005

Lovemore Madhuku of the NCA talks with Lance Guma of SW Radio Africa

A lot has been said about the relationship between the NCA and the MDC particularly its leader, Doctor Lovemore Madhuku. Are they still in good books? Behind the Headlines decided to pin down Doctor Lovemore Madhuku for a 15-minute interview and ask him if the NCA is competing against the MDC for political mileage.

Dr Madhuku: No, no, not at all, it is impossible for us to compete with the MDC. We have different objectives. Two different organisations. The MDC is a political party, their primary aim is to acquire power and so forth, I’m sure to keep it after getting in power.

We are a civic organisation our aim here is to push the country, to push the people of Zimbabwe to embrace constitutional reform to get a new constitution for Zimbabwe. Those are two different things. What has happened in the recent past of course is that because of our different nature, our different-ness and different perspectives, with the election coming on 31 March, we would have wanted a situation where the MDC, just like we have discussed before, they are a member of the NCA, would have said ‘no elections without a new constitution, let’s really fight for a democratic constitution which would allow free and fair elections’. Now that is where we’ve had differences.

The MDC has given its own reasons for going to an election, and we didn’t agree with those reasons and for that reason we had to come out and say we didn’t believe it was appropriate to go into an election which is undemocratic, an election which can never be free and fair under the current context. That’s simply what we said. Now I'm sure the reaction from the MDC was that they were unhappy with that position. And many of their supporters, who are of course as supporters of an opposition party, in fact supporters of political parties they tend to sometimes, go too far in not addressing issues rationally. They put beforehand their either, faith in political parties and so forth and I think that is where the problem is.

Lance Guma: Now the Political Parties Liaison Committee recommended dismissing 5 opposition parties including the MDC for their decision to participate in the parliamentary polls. How representative is that of your stance as the NCA?

Dr Madhuku: The Political Parties Liaison Committee is a sub-committee of the NCA task force. Its role is simply to make recommendations to the task force. It does not make decisions on behalf of the task force. It has made recommendations in this respect that we should expel the MDC and other political parties who have decided to participate in these elections. That’s what they have recommended. But that recommendation is to be subjected to the normal processes in the NCA because the element of an expulsion, we have a constitution that governs that process.

You’ll have to get a finding of a disciplinary committee, which says these people have actually breached certain principles, and then on the basis of those principles that need to be expelled. An expulsion is not the automatic penalty for breaching principles. You may breach principles and not be expelled. Depends what the disciplinary committee recommends. So this recommendation from that committee will have to be taken to a disciplinary committee, and that’s a long process.

But since our formation in 1997, we have never expelled members actually, but we have a variety of members including political parties, who, some of them day to day they are in there supporting the organisation, then some of them, the next day they get out and so on. We are a broad church and we are not obviously in the business of expelling people. What we seem to want to do is to simply convince Zimbabweans to support the cause for a new constitution and that is the position. But we understand the concerns of the political parties and why they made those recommendations. But of course those recommendations have to be then subjected to the normal processes in the organisation, and I’ve no doubt that there will be no decision to expel anyone.

Lance Guma: Now, you are clearly opposed to the MDC participating in as much as other parties are also concerned, in the elections under the current constitution. But, could you say you understand their reasons for doing so?

Dr Madhuku: I don’t understand their reasons. They have no basis for the kind of position that they have taken. If the MDC wants to govern this country if that is their aim, then they will not be able to govern this country as long as the current constitution exists, and as long as they go for elections under the current constitution. But if their aim is just to be an opposition; get a few seats here and there and so forth and so forth, or what I have heard some of the people saying that we cannot just give power to ZANU PF when we see their presence and so on then that’s a game. Clearly they can remain as an opposition. But the aspirations of the supporters of the MDC are aspirations focusing on getting an alternative government.

So the MDC really is misleading its membership. Because as long as they create the impression that in this election, for example, they will be able to win it, or that in this election, once they win it they will be able to give jobs to people, improve the health system etc, that’s totally out. And our position in the NCA is lets go for a wholesale fundamental change of the infrastructure, the democratic infrastructure of this country, so we create a platform where we can have free and fair elections, where people really have free choice and so on. That was what we were aiming for. But I think many of the MDC politicians are just aiming for shortcuts and unfortunately they have a massive support of people who still don’t understand that it is going to be a long, long struggle to get real democracy in this country. So, I don’t understand their reasons, because none of their reasons given by the MDC would stand scrutiny if people scrutinise the reasons.

Lance Guma: Now, maybe Doctor Madhuku, we could move to the leader of the MDC, Morgan Tsvangirai statement that we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. That, maybe as an opposition party they are saying they faced losing relevance if they did not participate.

Dr Madhuku: That is wrong they were not going to be damned if they don’t participate in the election. It is wrong to say that a political party becomes irrelevant for not participating in an election. It is wrong to say that going to an election where the most likely outcome is to legitimise ZANU PF is making you irrelevant, it’s not correct. What Morgan should have said to the public is that they should pay the price for one to bring about democracy. I don’t agree with that at all. I think that it’s really simplistic to say that you’ll be damned. The MDC was a very strong movement even before they had one seat in parliament; in 1999 they were launched, in 2000 in February they were part of the movement that campaigned for a No vote.

They were a formidable force before June 2000 when they went into the parliamentary elections. What they failed to do was to explain to the people what non-participation would have meant. Non-participation is not giving ZANU PF victory on a platter. Non-participation would have meant telling Mugabe that ‘well, if you think you are the government you are not the government, you are illegitimate. And we will today, tomorrow, and until we succeed, mobilise as Zimbabweans, mobilise the international community to reject your government because you were never elected. But, that meant continuous arrests that meant daily people in the trenches organising against Mugabe. But the MDC was failing to do that on the basis that on one day MP’s in the MDC want to drive 4x4 vehicles and so forth, going around. They want to sit in hotels as MP’s but what difference do they make to the governance of this country?

Mugabe has absolute power, notwithstanding the 50 or 51 seats that MDC has. I mean you can tell me any day what Mugabe has failed to do in the past five years. We have had POSA, AIPPA all these draconian laws were passed while MDC was sitting there in parliament. It was a very big lesson to every Zimbabwean when mere parliamentary representation is not a sufficient process for what is being claimed to be the protection of democratic space.

Lance Guma: Now, you view a new constitution as the solution to our problems. Some, however, think we will never get a new constitution with this government, and a change of government has to come first. Would this not skew your priorities? What do you think?

Dr Madhuku: Very, very wrong. That is very, very wrong. We will get a new constitution in this country. For you to get a new constitution you don’t need a new government. You need to mobilise Zimbabweans. Look, the NCA has not stopped anyone from going into the elections but I can assure you that come the day after the election results are announced and so on, we will be mounting continuous processes to get a new constitution in this country. And we will succeed, we will succeed! Now, you may need to wait. If there are some people who still think you need to get a new government before you get a new constitution, then they can wait and see. There will be a new constitution in Zimbabwe by Zimbabweans before we get a new government and so on. If we take it the other way round and say that we need a new government first and then we get a new constitution, if we can get a new government without a new constitution why would that new government have the incentive to have a new constitution if they feel the current constitution can lead to changes of government and so forth? I mean, a constitution that can deliver political change is a good constitution will never deliver political change.

Lance Guma: Now, it is quite clear you and the MDC have different positions, but you are all seeking the same ultimate end. How would you, in the interim, characterise your relationship with the MDC?

Dr Madhuku: Our relationship is temporarily in problems; but it is a very strong relationship founded in the depths of our hearts. We are both committed to democratic reform. Here we have had a different strategy. The MDC believes they need to win the elections first, or at least they need to participate even if they don’t win the elections. This is very temporary; it’s only two and a half weeks before the elections on the 31st. Just place yourself (or everyone who is listening), in the position.

Come 31 March, people will go to the polls. 1st and 2nd April results are announced and ZANU PF has won, despite the fact that it is not popular. ZANU PF has won despite the fact that it is mis-governing our country. ZANU PF has won despite the fact that we still have hardships here, unemployment, everything that we see. Then we will as Zimbabweans reflect again on the cause of what has happened. Why is it? And we will be there as NCA to tell the public that we need a new constitution and we need the MDC.

The MDC has massive support and it as a lot of relevance. They are much bigger than the NCA. And so, what they need to do at that stage is to come out and say ‘well, I think the NCA position is correct and we need a new constitution and we can combine forces. We will even accept a process where the MDC leads the processes towards ensuring that Zimbabweans are mobilised to fight. But they must be fighting for democratic reforms first. Not fighting to get a new election and so forth. So our relations are temporarily in problem but definitely we are so stuck together by historical circumstances and the problems of the realities that we are facing together in this county. I do not see what some people seem to be seeing, that we have a problem. There is no problem it is a temporary thing. After the elections we will be together and you will see us very close with the president of the MDC, we will be together, and we will continue to work.

Lance Guma: Now is it true you boycotted the launch of the MDC manifesto and yet they are a member of the NCA? Could you clarify on that one?

Dr Madhuku: Well, I’m sure those who were making an issue were misunderstanding our relationship with the MDC. Although we were invited, this time around, it didn’t make sense for us to be seen at the launch of a manifesto for an election that we had said had no value. I think the NCA had to be seen to be maintaining certain principles. Our position at the moment is that we would not bless this election, but we’ve not said that and you’ll never hear it being said. The NCA has simply issued statements and has told people in public meetings that an election under the current constitution will not deliver the expectations of the people of Zimbabwe. And that’s the position. That’s the message we will be giving. And if we, or I as the Chairperson of the NCA had appeared what message would I have been giving, I mean promise the people that the MDC will win? No, in the past we have appeared at such fora because we have agreed, but not this time around. So that is not boycotting it, I mean they invited us; we were free not to accept the invitation and so forth. So it’s something that happens from time to time.

Lance Guma: Now you are well known for your boldness in the face of the current tyranny, as evidenced by the tireless demonstrations you have led. You have been beaten up and left for dead. Do you feel let down by most Zimbabweans, because I shudder to think. If the country had 12 million Madhuku’s would they sit by and watch helplessly? What do you think?

Dr Madhuku: Ok thank you for the comment but I don’t feel let down, I don’t get let down, I’m only disappointed. I don’t believe Zimbabweans have let us down. We need to do a lot of work; people are not born clear as to what to do, people are not born certain of what to do. They have to go through all the experiences of how to do certain things and so on. I think Zimbabweans are in the process of getting the experience of what to do. Actually the bulk of the discussion we’ve been having and the questions you have been asking, what you have been talking about regarding the MDC and the elections, if Zimbabweans we have to go through elections now, they are going to a bad election where they will not win and I believe that after that people will say ‘no, I think the way forward is actually we need to confront the regime, confront the regime in stay-away’s, confront the regime in every form of some mass participation and so forth. So we are not let down as such. Disappointed at the pace of the activism is what I can say but I think with time we are very, very optimistic that Zimbabweans will raise to the occasion and we should be looking forward to a united platform of Zimbabweans, civic organisations, women’s organisations, trades unions, youth and so forth. After the elections confront Mugabe and say ‘we demand reforms’

Lance Guma: Now do you think that as Zimbabweans we are asking for change too soon? Because I think a lot of people are getting discouraged by the pace of events and they don’t seem to see anything happening on the ground. Like I pointed out earlier, people can just not see the possibility of a new constitution under this government. Do you recognise this?

Dr Madhuku: Well, look I think that you are making a point. People are still courageous I mean if they are getting discouraged why are people saying they want to fight through an election and so on. Zimbabweans have been hoping that they will get a new constitution without shedding blood, without the kind of hardships they have to go through. There are societies who have become more democratic without necessarily going through the same sort of hardship without going through sacrifice. But now they must realise that this is not the case, we have to do more than what we’ve done before and they will, they will not be discouraged permanently into saying we cannot get change.

Lance Guma: Now, no one can ever talk about Zimbabwean activism without mentioning your name, would it be unfair to ask if you have any presidential ambitions in a new Zimbabwe?

Dr Madhuku: Well, your question is really coming to what we want to see in a democratic Zimbabwe. In a Zimbabwe anyone who aspires to get high political office must be allowed to do so you know.

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